Writers of ‘What A Beautiful Name’ on Leaving Hillsong, Humility & Their New Mission

[00:00:00] Today we are talking to two of the songwriters behind [00:00:03] some of the biggest worship songs of all time. I’m talking [00:00:06] songs like

what a Beautiful Name,

mighty To Save

Who You [00:00:09] Say I Am

This I Believe

Goodness of God and [00:00:12] many other massive songs that have blessed the global church [00:00:15] for decades.

And so I want to give a warm welcome to [00:00:18] Ben Fielding and Ruben Morgan, now part of [00:00:21] Commons it’s good to have you guys.

Thank you for having us. [00:00:24] Awesome. I was joking beforehand that it’s just really nice to [00:00:27] have two of those rich deep. [00:00:30] Intelligent accents in the same call. So [00:00:33] man, we’re gonna get a lot of gold. Well, guys it’s truly [00:00:36] incredible to think what God has done through your [00:00:39] lives to encourage his saints. And I actually went [00:00:42] on

perplexity AI before we got on the call, and [00:00:45] I asked perplexity to sum up the [00:00:48] total number of times that just those five songs that I [00:00:51] listed were streamed or played in [00:00:54] churches. It came back with this answer in total, including [00:00:57] streaming and church performances. These five songs have [00:01:00] been played collectively well over a billion [00:01:03] times globally. That’s. Insane. And [00:01:06] that means at the very least, you have helped [00:01:09] people connect with their creator and express their praise to him [00:01:12] over 1 billion times.

How does [00:01:15] that make you feel? Like, think about all the connections that [00:01:18] people have been able to experience with God because [00:01:21] of the songs you’ve written. How do you process that? That’s [00:01:24] good. Yeah. I mean, it’s a wild thought when you start to try to [00:01:27] break it down and make it tangible like that [00:01:30] because, as a songwriter, as a creative, your dream is to [00:01:33] be able to create something that helps [00:01:36] somebody else that brings a little bit more beauty into the world.

[00:01:39] And as a believer, when you add that level of going, well, [00:01:42] God, like what do you want to do with the thing that you’ve [00:01:45] put on my life? You only ever dream about like, [00:01:48] somebody connecting with something that you’ve worked on, let alone [00:01:51] those kind of numbers. And to me it’s the evidence [00:01:54] that as much as we want to see good come from our [00:01:57] lives and flow out of our lives the God that we [00:02:00] worship is even more interested in connecting with [00:02:03] people.

And so to me that’s the message of that story is that [00:02:06] you’ve got God who wants interaction [00:02:09] with creation with his people and that billion or whatever it [00:02:12] is, is God meeting with people. And, that’s phenomenal. [00:02:15] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it’s kind of amazing, and it’s hard to [00:02:18] get your head around those sort of numbers. But I [00:02:21] think realistically , the intent has always been to [00:02:24] help people worship, to create spaces and moments where [00:02:27] people connect with God.

And that doesn’t [00:02:30] change whether it’s, the a hundred people that get together on a Sunday morning in [00:02:33] church or whatever number that is, [00:02:36] or, going beyond that many, many, [00:02:39] many times around the world and in [00:02:42] villages in Africa and, cities in south [00:02:45] America or whatever it’s the same God and the [00:02:48] heart is still the same, is that people connect with the Lord [00:02:51] and grow deeper in their relationship with him.

And [00:02:54] so I guess at the end of the day, it’s all about [00:02:57] that. And it really should only be about that. [00:03:00] Yeah. Yeah. The numbers on the YouTube [00:03:03] video, or the Spotify, that’s all irrelevant to you [00:03:06] guys because. What’s at the heart of all of [00:03:09] it is just, those are actually just numbers that [00:03:12] hopefully are pointing to people, having their heart touched by [00:03:15] God and ministered to by God.

Exactly. And that, and that’s what I’m saying is like, [00:03:18] wow, when you tally up that sort of impact [00:03:21] that these songs have had, it’s so beautiful. And so again, I just [00:03:24] wanna honor you and thank you both for that. Thank you. And, [00:03:27] and on that, Alex, I mean, it’s not just numbers, is it, every [00:03:30] one of those numbers actually tells a story and it’s an experience.

[00:03:33] It’s someone’s life and someone’s connection with the Lord. And it [00:03:36] truly is an honor. And really humbling to kind of hear those sort [00:03:39] of numbers. So. That’s a great point because like, who [00:03:42] knows how that moment with the Lord changed [00:03:45] the trajectory of that person’s life. Like maybe they were on their [00:03:48] way to go commit some grievous sin that would’ve ruined their family, [00:03:51] but the Lord used it to steer them and it changed the whole [00:03:54] trajectory of their life.

And then all the lives of the people they touched after them, like, [00:03:57] wow, till we get to heaven, we won’t even be able to understand like [00:04:00] the great spiderweb of what these songs have [00:04:03] done. That’s gonna be amazing. It’s so true. Yeah. We’ve kind of been doing [00:04:06] this a little while and it’s amazing to actually see how a song [00:04:09] really takes on its own life.

And it starts to [00:04:12] write its own story. And often people will go know, what’s the song story [00:04:15] behind a particular song? And you can talk about how it was written and the [00:04:18] heart behind it and the scripture that influenced the lyric. [00:04:21] But I’ve always found like , the coolest story that there is attached to a [00:04:24] song, other stories that are written after.

And you [00:04:27] see the song take on its own life and it reaches people in different [00:04:30] ways. And like you said, there’s so many different permutations that you [00:04:33] couldn’t even begin to imagine the kinds of [00:04:36] ways in which the songs that have been written [00:04:39] and to be written by some of the people even, tuning into this [00:04:42] podcast will impact the community that, that the [00:04:45] songwriter finds himself in, but also what God [00:04:48] might want to do outside of that.

And so we kind of got this [00:04:51] responsibility on our part to take whatever God’s put [00:04:54] on our lives, the craft that he’s given us. Work really hard [00:04:57] at it. But then there’s also that element of you do it with [00:05:00] open hands and you release it back and go, God, what do you want to [00:05:03] do with it?

Hmm. And if we can do that, well [00:05:06] then there’s something actually quite liberating, I think, as creatives, [00:05:09] because we’re now not bound by those [00:05:12] numbers. We’re not going, well, if my song doesn’t stream X we’re not [00:05:15] bound by that. They can be helpful measures, but they’re not [00:05:18] the determinant of whether what we’re doing is a value or [00:05:21] not.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember talking to [00:05:24] Andy er from Vertical Worship and he said, [00:05:27] songs are lifeboats and sometimes you write it just so that [00:05:30] you and the Lord can row together for a little while. Mm-hmm. And [00:05:33] other times he expands that lifeboat so that more people [00:05:36] can get in, and so, like you said, it’s whatever you wanna do [00:05:39] with it, Lord.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I know we’re gonna be [00:05:42] focusing a lot on what you’re doing now, which is Commons, you guys [00:05:45] just finished releasing a three or four part EP that [00:05:48] equals up to a whole album. So we’ll talk about that towards the end.[00:05:51]

But you, you both kind of, I guess, rose up through the ranks or [00:05:54] grew into your, role and your [00:05:57] calling at Hillsong and going all the way back, [00:06:00] when you first started out. What was it like back in those [00:06:03] days was it already starting to see some [00:06:06] success or was it still like humble beginnings did you each come [00:06:09] into it at the same moment?

Yeah. So, I don’t know, I just wanna take us back [00:06:12] a little bit. Yeah. We came in at slightly different [00:06:15] times, actually, kind of different era really. So I came in at [00:06:18] around 95. And [00:06:21] Hillsong wasn’t called Hillsong then. It was called Hills Christian [00:06:24] Life Center. And they were meeting in a entertainment [00:06:27] center in the hills.

And they were [00:06:30] packing that out. It was probably like 1500 people per [00:06:33] service. And it was a few services a day. And I had [00:06:36] moved from Melbourne from a really small Baptist church into [00:06:39] that environment and was overwhelmed by [00:06:42] it, but just, it was definitely a worshiping [00:06:45] community already. There was a guy by the name of Jeff [00:06:48] Bullock who basically wrote all the songs [00:06:51] and he’s a hero.

Amazing, amazing [00:06:54] songs wrote, power of Your Love and songs like that. Darlene had [00:06:57] just written Shout to the Lord at the time. So I think [00:07:00] that song, it was the first time I think anything that was [00:07:03] happening at Hills. Went beyond Australia with [00:07:06] shout to the Lord. And so I kind of came into that [00:07:09] environment.

It was one church location, and that’s really [00:07:12] just what it was. It had a, a conference and it was [00:07:15] smallish conference. And over a period [00:07:18] of two or three years, the thing [00:07:21] just exploded. And we just saw [00:07:24] this exponential type growth going [00:07:27] throughout the world really.

And just hearing these stories of [00:07:30] what was happening with the songs it just sort of took on a life of [00:07:33] its own. It was very, very unique and [00:07:36] special time and the whole thing, when was it until [00:07:39] 2022 was a bit of a whirlwind, really. Like, it was just absolutely [00:07:42] wild.

What God, did I mean, I think he was [00:07:45] drawing people from everywhere, creatives, ben and I, we, we [00:07:48] came from Melbourne people all over the place coming together [00:07:51] with that gifting, I think to bring a song [00:07:54] to the church worldwide. [00:07:57] And that was a community that was sort of entrusted to [00:08:00] be the church environment where all of that thrived and [00:08:03] what a time it was, just so [00:08:06] special.

Yeah, I mean, so I arrived a few years [00:08:09] after Rubes and and it was just this like [00:08:12] incredible. Energy about the creativity [00:08:15] of that community. And as somebody who is [00:08:18] already writing songs and loved [00:08:21] music, like I grew up in a little Baptist church in Melbourne as [00:08:24] well and fell in love with church [00:08:27] music.

It just captivated me as a kid. I’d walk out of [00:08:30] church singing these like scripture in song songs and [00:08:33] they taught me so much about who God was. And as soon [00:08:36] as I picked up an instrument that’s, I wanted to play the songs we were singing in [00:08:39] church and started serving in church as soon as they [00:08:42] would let me and.

So arriving at Hillsong was like, it was no [00:08:45] different. I got there, I was blown away with the scale of it [00:08:48] obviously was so different, but I saw the same kind of [00:08:51] hunger and passion and [00:08:54] character in the creatives and in the worshiping community [00:08:57] there. And it really was a fertile ground [00:09:00] for songwriters, for, worship [00:09:03] leaders and musicians to be raised up and to be [00:09:06] able to, iron sharpens iron.

I felt like my [00:09:09] songwriting improved so quickly in that environment because I [00:09:12] had all these amazing songwriters around to show ideas too, [00:09:15] and we were collaborating together. And so I look [00:09:18] back on that period and just go, man, that was like a really [00:09:21] unique. Period in time.

Whereas Rube said, I [00:09:24] think God, he’d draw together all of these people [00:09:27] who in lots of ways they’re still dear friends, to this [00:09:30] day I was just with a bunch of them in America last week so we’re all [00:09:33] still working together. I think those connections become so deep [00:09:36] and you kind of see what God has done through those [00:09:39] years.

God was at work in those years, not just [00:09:42] creating something that went externally, but he was doing [00:09:45] something really beautiful internally in the lives of [00:09:48] each of those people and in our [00:09:51] relationships with one another, which I think have stood the test of time and [00:09:54] I think will for many years to come.

Yeah. That’s so [00:09:57] cool. The collaboration really like so many great [00:10:00] songs because of all that beautiful collaboration. And before I ask my [00:10:03] next question, I gotta lower myself because this next [00:10:06] question is about pride. As you were part of [00:10:09] this, meteoric rise of hillsong’s [00:10:12] influence and impact in the world were there ever [00:10:15] seasons, because both of you, you guys have [00:10:18] Grammys Dove awards and all these things, right? Was there ever a [00:10:21] moment where you were tempted to take credit for [00:10:24] yourself or where pride crept in and like, look what I’ve [00:10:27] done or I must be so good, or anything like that [00:10:30] that you wanna speak into?

Because I think that struggle of [00:10:33] pride is something that all worship leaders wrestle with, but I [00:10:36] can’t imagine the temptation towards pride when [00:10:39] you’re, technically the top, top, top of the top, [00:10:42] right? So did that ever happen? Did, and then if [00:10:45] so, how did you wrestle that down? Or what did the Lord have to do [00:10:48] in your life to break that And if not, cool, praise God.

[00:10:51] But that’s a good question, Alex. I think, for [00:10:54] me at least, you’re talking about a, 25 year [00:10:57] period. And really like, kind of unusual [00:11:00] things happening. It’s not normal. And I think especially for [00:11:03] a worship leader and somebody who’s writing [00:11:06] worship songs devotional songs to the [00:11:09] Lord, it’s quite an unusual thing to [00:11:12] happen.

And so you’re on this [00:11:15] personal journey this discipleship journey [00:11:18] yourself this wrestle that goes on [00:11:21] between you and the Lord, like, I guess probably in [00:11:24] any walk of life. I think some days [00:11:27] you do it well, and some days you don’t. [00:11:30] And some seasons, years, you’re doing [00:11:33] better than others and sometimes you don’t know.

[00:11:36] And I think that’s the thing about community is that if I [00:11:39] were to reflect on a different kind of seasons I wouldn’t have had [00:11:42] the time said I was [00:11:45] prideful or arrogant or like I was trying not to [00:11:48] be. But I think if I reflect on some of the [00:11:51] things that I remember say that stand out to me, [00:11:54] as I would’ve said, kind of in [00:11:57] different rooms or ways that I was being in different [00:12:00] rooms, I would say absolutely arrogant, [00:12:03] prideful

definitely not showing [00:12:06] humility. Thankfully with the community that we’re a [00:12:09] part of this very gracious group of people. [00:12:12] Everybody gave each other a lot of room as far [00:12:15] as, personal growth and, working through the [00:12:18] seasons and all of that.

And as Ben said we’re all still [00:12:21] good friends and, still do life together, so. [00:12:24] Yeah, I just echo that rub. The thing that’s so challenging [00:12:27] about pride and ego is we all [00:12:30] wrestle with it. And I think if we don’t think that we do, then [00:12:33] we definitely do. And, and it’s insidious, [00:12:36] isn’t it?

And it comes in different ways. And I think, [00:12:39] like Rube said, when I reflect. Back now you can do [00:12:42] it with a little bit more clarion than you do at the time [00:12:45] because, I do think legitimately all the people that we were doing [00:12:48] life with were doing their best to try to keep totally [00:12:51] that in check.

And I think, being in a community, [00:12:54] being planted in a church and, serving [00:12:57] alongside other people really helps with that because, and maybe [00:13:00] in part it’s Australian culture, if you start to, pop up a little [00:13:03] bit, somebody will, make sure you get pulled back in a line.

But [00:13:06] yeah, I think it’s insidious because doesn’t [00:13:09] always come out in a way where it’s [00:13:12] obvious that you are trying to elevate yourself above [00:13:15] somebody else. But it can be in those little [00:13:18] decisions that you make or comments or where even just your [00:13:21] mentality goes, starts to focus less on.

[00:13:24] The good that God is trying to do with what He’s put on your [00:13:27] life and can be even more about just, is this [00:13:30] song gonna be successful? Is this song gonna add [00:13:33] something to my life, which is a distraction [00:13:36] from the thing that, you are ultimately called to do, and the [00:13:39] passion that God put on my life in the first [00:13:42] place.

And so along the way, like I found it, and I still find it [00:13:45] really helpful to kind of just remind myself whether [00:13:48] it’s songwriting or whether it’s even coming into like Lee [00:13:51] Worship to go like, God has put [00:13:54] me in this position and people wanting to connect [00:13:57] with him. And so the [00:14:00] reality is like if a song’s doing its job, [00:14:03] what people are connecting with is the goodness of [00:14:06] God and the character of God.

And it should result in [00:14:09] worship. The Lord and not of me. People aren’t worshiping the song. And I [00:14:12] think if we are worshiping the music and we’re worshiping the song, [00:14:15] then we’ve been distracted from the objective. [00:14:18] And so I find that quite humbling because when somebody’s [00:14:21] like, wow,

that song is amazing. I think what they’re [00:14:24] really saying for the most part not to say [00:14:27] it’s not important that we write good songs, but for the most part what they’re saying [00:14:30] is that really helped me in my faith. [00:14:33] And so there’s this depth of connection that people are having, [00:14:36] not necessarily with the song, but with their creator.

[00:14:39] And , that’s what it’s all about. I think, you know, [00:14:42] Just to reiterate, I think it doesn’t matter who you are, if you’re a [00:14:45] believer, we are all on a journey of [00:14:48] discipleship. And it doesn’t matter who you [00:14:51] are, you’re not exempt from that. And I think it’s really [00:14:54] important to be about that.

Yeah, Ruben, when you [00:14:57] shared that when you look back, it’s easy to [00:15:00] see some of the seasons where you might’ve had more [00:15:03] ego than others. And I think you’re right. We’re kind of blind [00:15:06] to it in the moment. And I look back at some of the things that I [00:15:09] said, to my senior pastor and I’m like, I can’t [00:15:12] believe that I thought that that was okay.

[00:15:15] Like, I must have really been trying to prove myself, you know? right. [00:15:18] And the, the amazing thing through all that [00:15:21] is to say, you know what? Yes, we’re totally [00:15:24] flawed and totally broken, and every day doing our best and [00:15:27] usually our best is very poor, and yet God [00:15:30] chooses to use us anyway. I think that’s the crazy thing [00:15:33] is like, even through our ups and downs, like God is like, Nope, I’m [00:15:36] gonna bless my church.

I’m gonna bless my people even with your [00:15:39] weird motives or whatever. Because I love my church. It’s amazing. [00:15:42] Yeah. Yeah. The reality is, I mean, that’s, that’s all [00:15:45] God’s got to work with are imperfect people and [00:15:48] imperfect songs, , as much as we [00:15:51] try and as much as we should, work hard on the craft.[00:15:54]

Our best efforts only ever imperfect [00:15:57] efforts of describing a perfect [00:16:00] God. And so I think we’ve gotta have some grace for one [00:16:03] another, but some grace for ourselves as well to go, [00:16:06] you know, it is a journey. Like we’re all on a trajectory. [00:16:09] Hopefully our trajectory is upwards towards becoming [00:16:12] more and more Christ-like.

And so that even, I’m [00:16:15] encouraged by hearing like the humility to reflect [00:16:18] and to go back and go, yeah, well I didn’t get that right. [00:16:21] Maybe we need to apologize to people. Maybe we need to [00:16:24] make adjustments. But I think God can work with [00:16:27] that. And we look at the life of King David.

I mean, he’s the perfect [00:16:30] example for songwriters and creatives. But his [00:16:33] life was certainly not perfect, but he had a heart that [00:16:36] was after God’s own. It was his contrition that [00:16:39] attracted and continued to attract the blessing of God. [00:16:42] And so I kind of think we can take some comfort from that, I [00:16:45] think as creatives to go, we don’t have to have it all lined up.[00:16:48]

And in fact, there’s maybe something beautiful about recognizing that we [00:16:51] never will. But as long as we’re in the right [00:16:54] direction I think God can work with that. Hmm. [00:16:57] You mentioned Ben, you said [00:17:00] that’s the wrong way to view a song. Earlier, [00:17:03] a few minutes ago, regarding, I hope this gets a lot of [00:17:06] views or whatever.

What is the right way to view a song?

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What is the right way to [00:18:51] view a song?

Yeah, it’s so hard because I think [00:18:54] we’re so attracted to tangible [00:18:57] measures of whether something is meaningful or not, or whether [00:19:00] it’s valuable or not. And it can be really hard [00:19:03] because it’s a vulnerable thing to create something out of [00:19:06] your.

Own experience. Your whole life gets poured out even if it’s [00:19:09] in, a three minute song. ’cause your whole life [00:19:12] experiences is informing why you wanted to write that in [00:19:15] that way. Why you put that musical color to it. [00:19:18] So it really is this vulnerable process [00:19:21] that you then present to the world.

And I’ve [00:19:24] said before, like, sometimes songwriting feels like a [00:19:27] PhD in disappointment and rejection because you’re [00:19:30] putting out your vulnerable ideas and they don’t always [00:19:33] resonate the way that you expect that they would. Whether that’s [00:19:36] in a co-write, a collaborative kind of environment, or whether it’s [00:19:39] actually a song you’ve released going, I think this is something really [00:19:42] special and it doesn’t receive the kind [00:19:45] of lean in that you thought it would.

It, it is a balance, [00:19:48] isn’t it? Because I think we wanna be [00:19:51] aware of, particularly if we’re creating and we’re releasing music [00:19:54] for people to be able to connect with we wanna [00:19:57] know whether it’s resonating or not. There’s even a humility [00:20:00] about kind of, preferably before we’ve released the song, [00:20:03] but going, is this connecting with [00:20:06] people?

But we just gotta have like a level [00:20:09] of, maybe it’s maturity or maybe it’s just a bigger [00:20:12] picture of going, not everything that we create is [00:20:15] gonna resonate in a way that looks [00:20:18] like, large numbers of streaming or whatever. But it doesn’t mean that [00:20:21] it’s not valuable.

And I think, a lot of [00:20:24] songwriters would say that the song that meant the most to them [00:20:27] maybe isn’t even the song that really resonated with their [00:20:30] audience in the most significant way. The god’s [00:20:33] there in the whole process. And I think as [00:20:36] writers, if we can kind of have that perspective, [00:20:39] that one of the most beautiful things that we get to do is actually [00:20:42] go and dig into the character of God.

[00:20:45] And there’s something that’s happening in our own lives where in [00:20:48] that creative process, which if I never released the [00:20:51] song is still entirely meaningful. And [00:20:54] then, I think right, all the way through the process, it’s that [00:20:57] continual recalibrating of going like, how do [00:21:00] I define value and how do I [00:21:03] make sure I’m not lured into this measure of [00:21:06] success that we don’t really have a [00:21:09] biblical framework for?

Because, there’s nothing in the New [00:21:12] Testament about good streaming numbers, or you [00:21:15] don’t really see a lot of discussion at all about [00:21:18] measures of success. So it’s really something that I think [00:21:21] we have borrowed from our culture. And I think we’ve just [00:21:24] gotta be careful that we don’t let that become the [00:21:27] determinant of what is valuable and important in the eyes of God.[00:21:30]

Hmm. So, if I understand you [00:21:33] correctly, the purpose of a song [00:21:36] is to dig into the character of God. The purpose of a [00:21:39] song is an opportunity for us to dig deeper into the [00:21:42] character of God. You said something like that. Does that sound right to either of [00:21:45] you what’s the right mindset we should carry in terms of [00:21:48] songwriting?

Lemme try to do a better job there like, so I think, yeah, I [00:21:51] think digging for, as a writer, like that process of [00:21:54] discovery, like of revelation of who God is, [00:21:57] that’s part of the process, which is one of my favorite parts of being a [00:22:00] songwriter. But then the purpose of the song then, I [00:22:03] think particularly a song for church worship is [00:22:06] that then it does its job in being a gift to [00:22:09] worship leaders who are trying to, gather a body of [00:22:12] people to sing. So it should be able to unify [00:22:15] people and lift the eyes of the people to, who the [00:22:18] Lord is. And then I think that the song has a [00:22:21] really important role to play in our own personal [00:22:24] devotion. So a good worship song you can put it on in the car and [00:22:27] straight away, it helps you fix your attention, not [00:22:30] just on what’s happening in your immediate circumstances, [00:22:33] but on who God is. Yeah, I, I mean, I [00:22:36] think the question of purpose around song is [00:22:39] crucial, and it’s also one in a co-writing [00:22:42] session that is a good thing to discuss. Like, what are we going [00:22:45] for here? Like, what is the end goal? And that [00:22:48] can change if my daughter shows me a song that she’s [00:22:51] written her purpose may be very different and [00:22:54] especially in that moment to what.

[00:22:57] Potentially Ben or I might be going for, when it comes to a [00:23:00] song for the church or our particular congregation [00:23:03] or something that would go broader. And so [00:23:06] I think it can change and I think that’s what makes the whole thing [00:23:09] fun. So I think when it comes to songs for [00:23:12] church, I think they should be rich in theology [00:23:15] deeply rich in theology.

I think we should be singing [00:23:18] Theology in Church. I think that they need to be [00:23:21] singable. I think that’s really important and something that we’re [00:23:24] committed to. And you should want to sing them they [00:23:27] should inspire you and you should be wanting to [00:23:30] do that song again. Do that song at the start of the service, do it [00:23:33] at the end.

That’s the goal as well. Hmm. [00:23:36] And week in, week out as well. I think songs for [00:23:39] church, there’s a definite creative purpose to them and [00:23:42] God seems to use those songs in [00:23:45] incredible and grand ways and that’s humbling. [00:23:48] Even that, yeah. Something I didn’t send to you [00:23:51] guys in advance, but I was preparing for [00:23:54] the interview and I thought, how do you guys handle the weight of the [00:23:57] global church using your lyrics as [00:24:00] prayers?

And what sort of filter do you run [00:24:03] your lyrics through to make sure you’re helping the widest group of people [00:24:06] possible without being too shallow? you guys have [00:24:09] probably a very delicate balance there. So how do you handle all that, the [00:24:12] lyrics and the theology of the songs? I think [00:24:15] we’ve always been very committed to trying [00:24:18] to write around [00:24:21] scripture that’s the easiest way to, test your lyrics is to [00:24:24] go what is the biblical basis for that [00:24:27] line. And then to, be really committed to [00:24:30] the responsibility that if we are putting [00:24:33] theology and words in the mouth of the church, is it true?

[00:24:36] And we’ve probably both learned the hard way. [00:24:39] Even, when you’ve agitated and you’ve tried to kind [00:24:42] of, test the lyrics and to, hold them [00:24:45] to that sort of biblical litmus test, [00:24:48] you still sometimes will not get it right, or there’s [00:24:51] maybe not a, a clarity or there’s an ambiguity [00:24:54] around what you meant.

And so when a song [00:24:57] goes broadly, you definitely get that feedback [00:25:00] from, different parts of the church or blogs or [00:25:03] whatever. And I actually think it’s quite helpful [00:25:06] because, the spirit’s not always kind, but I think it’s helpful [00:25:09] that. As a songwriter to go? Yeah, actually it’s a [00:25:12] reminder that I wanna make sure that what I’m writing [00:25:15] is received in the way that I intended it to be [00:25:18] received.

And that it, it’s not creating distortion [00:25:21] for people around the way they see God, [00:25:24] but it’s helping them lean towards [00:25:27] truth. And so I think starting with scripture is, is [00:25:30] imperative. And then actually, having it, some sort of process, [00:25:33] whether it’s a pastor at your church, whether it’s someone that you respect, [00:25:36] who maybe has studied a bit of theology, just [00:25:39] having people in your world that you can say, Hey, I’ve written [00:25:42] this lyric what do you think?

And [00:25:45] actually be receptive to the feedback is really, really [00:25:48] helpful. Yeah. Just to add to that slightly, I [00:25:51] think we’ve always sort of tried to stay away from anything [00:25:54] really controversial in songs as well, so. If the [00:25:57] lines are kind of broad and just [00:26:00] staying well within the lines, I think that’s probably not a [00:26:03] bad rule of thumb when it comes to theology , and [00:26:06] songs.

Cause they end up reaching a lot of people with a [00:26:09] lot of different niche theologies. And I think [00:26:12] you just wanna stay away from all kinds. And just [00:26:15] keep it right in the middle. Yeah. You’re like, let’s not sing about [00:26:18] the doctrine of substantial sub, what is the [00:26:21] Catholic thing where the print turns in substantiation?

Right. It’s like, [00:26:24] you’re like, let’s, let’s avoid that one. Let’s sing more [00:26:27] generally about Christ returning or whatever. On that point, I think that [00:26:30] there’s a way to still. Because I do believe that the [00:26:33] church should sing a really rich and balanced [00:26:36] theology.

And so there’s areas of theology that [00:26:39] I think we can be prone to avoid because they feel [00:26:42] difficult or they feel controversial. We actually did write a [00:26:45] song called Remember Crisis, sort of around communion. But we did it [00:26:48] in a way where hopefully it’s unifying because [00:26:51] we’re just drawing on the scriptures.

The communion [00:26:54] scriptures, so that you could sing that I think no matter what your [00:26:57] particular persuasion was or doctrine [00:27:00] was around the sacraments. And I think that as [00:27:03] songwriters, we can have that as an objective too, is can we [00:27:06] write this in a way where everybody actually could [00:27:09] sing it, even if they’re looking at it from a slightly different [00:27:12] angle?

Hmm. Yeah. And I think if we’re also [00:27:15] focusing on writing for our own particular churches, we [00:27:18] can be a little more narrow not every song’s gonna go [00:27:21] broad. We can say, this group of people needs to sing [00:27:24] about this narrow niche topic of theology, and that’s what our [00:27:27] church needs.

And, and that’s okay. But it just knowing that it’s gonna limit [00:27:30] the global reach or whatever. Yeah. Not that most of us have [00:27:33] a global reach, unlike you guys. But let, let me ask you [00:27:36] guys this question. So, Reuben mentioned [00:27:39] some core qualities of a perfect worship [00:27:42] song, you said , it’s got rich theology, it’s [00:27:45] singable and you want to sing it.

How else would you answer the [00:27:48] question? Describe the attributes of a perfect worship [00:27:51] song? What is a perfect worship song to you guys?

Besides, what a [00:27:54] beautiful name. Well, yeah. Geez. Well, I, I mean, I would [00:27:57] start by saying, there’s no such thing obviously like it, we only [00:28:00] ever sort of scratching the surface, I think. [00:28:03] But one of the things that we often talk about and [00:28:06] we’re talking specifically about songs for the church to sing, [00:28:09] which is what we’re super passionate about is that it [00:28:12] can be really hard in the era that we [00:28:15] live in, where a lot of the new music that we’re [00:28:18] discovering, we’re discovering through.

TikTok or [00:28:21] Instagram or socials. And, so our [00:28:24] algorithm, is throwing us like these amazing, like things [00:28:27] where you’ll see like a, a song in a big room and [00:28:30] there’s so much energy around it and you look and you [00:28:33] see it and you go, I wanna sing that song , in my church. [00:28:36] And it’s almost like you’re drawn to the momentum of, that [00:28:39] moment.

And then there’s a disconnect potentially between [00:28:42] what works in that environment and what works when you [00:28:45] stand up at 8:00 AM on a Sunday morning with, 50 [00:28:48] people who are just, have just got out of bed and are standing there [00:28:51] going, what are we doing here? And so I think as [00:28:54] worship pastors and worship leaders we’ve got [00:28:57] that, extra filter that we’ve gotta apply.

And [00:29:00] particularly when we’re being presented with so much incredible [00:29:03] music, but. We’ve gotta go is, is this song [00:29:06] that I’m hearing and I’m really compelled by, [00:29:09] is it compelling in the right ways that are actually gonna help me [00:29:12] do what I’m meant to do this weekend in [00:29:15] church.

So if I took it through that lens, then I [00:29:18] think there’s questions like is the [00:29:21] theology really rich? Is it [00:29:24] true? Is it stable? Is it. [00:29:27] Orthodox, has it been tested? Does it sound [00:29:30] scriptural? That’s really important musically, [00:29:33] is it achievable? And I think we’ve gotta look at the people that we [00:29:36] have on our team at church and go, [00:29:39] can we not necessarily even replicate the [00:29:42] recorded version, but can we do that song in a way that’s gonna work, [00:29:45] that’s actually gonna be beautiful, that’s gonna help people [00:29:48] worship and not distract our church?

And [00:29:51] then look and go like, is this song singable? [00:29:54] And so I don’t think that necessarily that means it gotta be boring or [00:29:57] like simplistic because you can hear a song, it’s [00:30:00] like really quite elaborate, but it’s so hooky and [00:30:03] catchy that you can sing it. It’s the second time you’ve heard [00:30:06] it.

But I think that’s a really important test too, to go, [00:30:09] is does it just sound good? Because the [00:30:12] person that sung it is an amazing vocalist. Or [00:30:15] would it sound good if I put that in a service and [00:30:18] my church sung it back to me? And I think that’s a really important [00:30:21] test as well. Yeah. And just to add to that, [00:30:24] I think then, does it create a sense of worship? I think [00:30:27] that there’s a bit of a mystery to worship songs as well. [00:30:30] And you can’t, change the fact that, [00:30:33] we are actually writing songs that help people connect with [00:30:36] God. And so , there’s that creative [00:30:39] element and that spirit inspired element that I [00:30:42] think people need to be aware of as well, just because we [00:30:45] like a song.

Or if we’re writing, we like the [00:30:48] sound of a melody. It doesn’t necessarily make it a [00:30:51] good worship song or a church congregational [00:30:54] worship song. It’s kind of its own thing. And I think [00:30:57] it’s maybe important to differentiate [00:31:00] even is that we are not just trying to write a clever song [00:31:03] or a cool song.

This is a song for church that helps [00:31:06] people experience the presence of God and lean into him. [00:31:09] And it’s good. It’s a way for people to worship. [00:31:12] Mm-hmm. Speaking of songwriting, [00:31:15] love your advice or tips on this, like, what is the [00:31:18] key to a great chorus? What is [00:31:21] that thing that just makes a chorus awesome for a [00:31:24] church service?

Any thoughts? I think that there’s an [00:31:27] immediacy, particularly when you we’re talking about [00:31:30] what will work in church and continue to work [00:31:33] in church. It’s this sort of balance between going, like, [00:31:36] it’s gotta be familiar and predictable. Like, I think you should be [00:31:39] able to almost sing the next line before [00:31:42] you’ve, even if you’ve never heard it before, there’s that degree of like, [00:31:45] it’s drawing you on a journey and it’s an easy journey to [00:31:48] walk.

But then the, the thing that makes writing [00:31:51] music for church so hard is that like you’ve got that [00:31:54] to hold in tension with the fact it’s [00:31:57] also gotta be interesting and it’s gotta have enough [00:32:00] color that you feel like you can sing it over and [00:32:03] over again and it doesn’t tire. [00:32:06] And that really, I think is where the challenge is.[00:32:09]

And I think there’s sort of really no way [00:32:12] to, there’s not a formula. I think, we have to [00:32:15] fill our lives with Revelation [00:32:18] and to keep working really hard on the craft. Because, [00:32:21] we don’t need somebody to write. How great is our God? [00:32:24] Again, that song’s been written. , But I do think we’ve got a mandate [00:32:27] to keep writing a new song.

So our, hyn book doesn’t [00:32:30] get stuck in a period of time, but there’s always new color and [00:32:33] there’s new perspective. ’cause that draws us to different [00:32:36] aspects of who God is to see him from, the many different [00:32:39] angles that we could. And so, yeah, I think that [00:32:42] we’ve got the responsibility to keep, digging but [00:32:45] then also to come away from our sessions and go [00:32:48] like, what, which idea actually really do [00:32:51] I wanna listen to over and over again?

’cause I think if as [00:32:54] writers we want to hear back a chorus over and over again, and it’s [00:32:57] doing something in us, then [00:33:00] there’s a chance that it might do that in our churches. Do you [00:33:03] think everybody should write for their church?

There’s a lot [00:33:06] of worship songs out, there’s. Not even enough song slots in [00:33:09] our services to put all the new worship songs in there. [00:33:12] Should we each be writing for our own church? Yes [00:33:15] or no? Why or why not? Honestly, I dunno the [00:33:18] answer to that. It’s something that we talk about [00:33:21] as part of our church at the moment, our little [00:33:24] community.

And don’t have an answer for it really. I [00:33:27] think a lot of churches have done what Hillsong [00:33:30] did that’s sort of, become a bit of a thing and that [00:33:33] can be good. But I think that’s not for everybody. [00:33:36] And it brings its own challenges as well.

So I, I [00:33:39] think it’s definitely something to keep talking about I think there’s [00:33:42] something great about. Stewarding the potential [00:33:45] gifts in your team and if you’ve got people [00:33:48] that are passionate about writing songs then [00:33:51] encouraging those people to get together and collaborate and [00:33:54] see what comes out, I think that’s, a great thing to [00:33:57] do.

But then there’s another step that’s going, you know, should, [00:34:00] how many or should we be singing any of those songs, are [00:34:03] they actually gonna help our meetings? [00:34:06] Because, and they might, and that would be amazing. Like, so [00:34:09] if the songs that were coming out, of the heart of that team, [00:34:12] you did one of them in church and it really helped lift the [00:34:15] meeting and it helped, everybody was singing along and it was [00:34:18] beautiful, then you do it again.

But I think it’s [00:34:21] also good to have that perspective of going, if the songs just aren’t [00:34:24] quite there yet, then let’s not force them to, be [00:34:27] carrying a weight that maybe they can’t carry. [00:34:30] And then the next step is to go. Okay, well, do we [00:34:33] need to record them and do we need to put an album out? [00:34:36] And I think that has become a lot more commonplace [00:34:39] because in part, the barrier to entry is so much lower.

[00:34:42] It’s easier to record music these days than it was [00:34:45] 20, 30 years ago. But I think that that’s [00:34:48] still really an important question to go, well, what are we trying to do [00:34:51] there? And it might just be to capture something that’s happening [00:34:54] on a weekend so people can go away and listen to the [00:34:57] songs that they’ve been singing and, that’s great.

I just think we’ve [00:35:00] gotta be careful too, that we don’t get distracted by going something [00:35:03] that was just meant to be about. Our local community [00:35:06] coming together to sing has now [00:35:09] become this sort of endeavor towards [00:35:12] creating like a music label those two [00:35:15] things are quite different in my view.

And I think, not to [00:35:18] say that you can’t do it. I just think their important questions to [00:35:21] ask and to wrestle with as church leadership. [00:35:24] I love that. I think that’s really wise because we don’t wanna do, like [00:35:27] anything in worship. We don’t wanna distract people from connecting with [00:35:30] God. And if our poor songwriting is actually [00:35:33] hindering people from connecting with God, then we should probably just sing your [00:35:36] guys’ songs instead.

You know what I mean? I I think that’s actually [00:35:39] really wise. and vice versa. We’ve spent years and [00:35:42] years standing up in, church and leading a new [00:35:45] song that we thought was gonna light the room up and it just falls [00:35:48] flat.

And you go, well, okay, do we do it again? And you might give it a [00:35:51] second run. And if it just, if it’s really hard work, then [00:35:54] at some point you’ve just gotta go. That’s just not the song. And have this [00:35:57] belief, this big perspective of [00:36:00] going, God doesn’t necessarily give the gift of a song, [00:36:03] but he gives the gift to create songs.

And so we don’t need to [00:36:06] focus on that one particular song. Maybe that’s not the one, [00:36:09] but just lean back into the gift that God’s put on your [00:36:12] life and keep digging in and see what other gold comes up. That’s I, [00:36:15] I’d love to ask one more songwriting question and then I’d [00:36:18] love to just real briefly touch on just what the Lord [00:36:21] taught you and showed you through that exit period from [00:36:24] Hillsong during all the turmoil.

I don’t wanna dig up drama or [00:36:27] cause, division or anything, but I just wanna see what the Lord showed you. [00:36:30] ’cause a lot of people go through crappy church situation, [00:36:33] so For sure. But, but one question that I struggle with [00:36:36] is, how do you know a song is done? Because you can [00:36:39] endlessly tweak.

Like I even have a song right now. I, I love [00:36:42] everything about it, but I’m like, is there a better line [00:36:45] in that bridge that could just take it, that [00:36:48] 2% higher, even though my church is already worshiping with it and [00:36:51] loves it. Like, you can endlessly tweak. So how do you know [00:36:54] that a song is done and you should just let it go?

Reuben? I [00:36:57] don’t think there’s an easy answer to that. Every song’s different, [00:37:00] and I’m with you. You could endlessly tweak. I [00:37:03] think you can take a song too far. So you, [00:37:06] rewrite it out of where the sort of the [00:37:09] beauty was, and where the kind of that feeling of [00:37:12] spontaneity and whatever the essence of that song was can [00:37:15] get lost in rewrite.

So you have to be really careful. I [00:37:18] think that’s why co-writing so good is you have [00:37:21] sort of built in accountability in the whole thing as [00:37:24] well. So Looking, stepping back from a song for a [00:37:27] moment can be really helpful too.

So I, I probably [00:37:30] these days don’t keep going digging on a song unless [00:37:33] there’s something about it that really moves me. And [00:37:36] if I go, there’s something special about this song, then you [00:37:39] start dialing up the crafting of that song and going, does [00:37:42] every line hit me? And sometimes as a writer, [00:37:45] you’ll change a line hopefully for the better.

And then [00:37:48] all of a sudden other lyrics start to look [00:37:51] lackluster because they’re not quite, as, they don’t hit in [00:37:54] the same way. And so sometimes you get this [00:37:57] feeling , that the work you’re doing is actually elevating the song. And [00:38:00] everything now has to get better to try to like lift to that [00:38:03] standard.

But I think when we realize that what we’re doing [00:38:06] is actually doing the opposite, where I’m, you’re changing things [00:38:09] and it’s just still feels like it’s not, it’s making it more [00:38:12] incongruent. It’s probably a good time to either pause, [00:38:15] step back from it, or to involve another writer, [00:38:18] collaborate and, get some help and get some perspective [00:38:21] from somebody else.

That’s good. Yes. So [00:38:24] just briefly touching on Hillsong [00:38:27] and just how things unfolded towards those later [00:38:30] years. Reuben, you said you were there for 25 years, and so that must’ve [00:38:33] been incredibly complex and painful and [00:38:36] confusing. Not just for you, but everyone watching and the [00:38:39] whole situation.

And as you’ve [00:38:42] exited that season over the last couple years and [00:38:45] processed it, hopefully prayerfully, I’m sure there’s a [00:38:48] lot of pain and hurt. I’ve, I still carry a lot of hurt from things that [00:38:51] happened in my past at different ministries. But what were some of [00:38:54] the key lessons that God taught each of [00:38:57] you that you feel like would be helpful for the people [00:39:00] listening?

I think you know, that what you said there is really good [00:39:03] that I think we all go through moments in [00:39:06] our faith. Life and our spiritual journey [00:39:09] and our doing that in community there’s [00:39:12] moments where they feel incredibly difficult. [00:39:15] And there are moments that can kind of open up [00:39:18] wounds in our lives if we don’t pay attention to them and [00:39:21] we don’t take the time to actually sit with them and [00:39:24] process and that they can cause [00:39:27] ongoing damage.

And one of the things that I was really committed [00:39:30] to and my family was to make sure that , we didn’t want to [00:39:33] carry a sense of hurt bitterness or [00:39:36] anything like that from that season. We wanted to [00:39:39] be grateful for the things that we needed to be grateful [00:39:42] for. We wanted to recognize where things had [00:39:45] fallen over in a way that they shouldn’t have, and go, what can we learn [00:39:48] from that so that we don’t see that happen again?

And then [00:39:51] ultimately to kind of have this sense of belief [00:39:54] that it was God who was doing good things [00:39:57] along the way. He was working all things together for his [00:40:00] good the whole way through those years and that it’s him that [00:40:03] continues to do so. I think when you’re in an [00:40:06] environment like that where there’s this incredible [00:40:09] momentum, you can begin to believe that the [00:40:12] reason that God’s at work in your life is [00:40:15] because you were a part of something that was [00:40:18] successful.

And the individual sense of God’s [00:40:21] gifting and anointing or whatever on your [00:40:24] life takes this really relegated place. [00:40:27] And so for me, one of the things I had to journey through was actually going. [00:40:30] And discovering that. While it’s really [00:40:33] amazing to be a part of something that’s incredible and [00:40:36] beautiful and a creative sort of juggernaut, that the [00:40:39] gift, if it’s good, is coming from God.

He’s the only [00:40:42] giver of all good gifts. And on the other side of that [00:40:45] season of my life, I’ve continued to see God at work [00:40:48] and it feels as rich. The collaborative part of [00:40:51] what I’m doing is as rich. And it’s really been actually a [00:40:54] really beautiful reminder of the fact [00:40:57] that that gifting and that opportunity to create and to [00:41:00] serve God in that way comes from him and it doesn’t come from [00:41:03] anywhere else.

Mm-hmm. That’s beautiful. It’s good [00:41:06] there’s so much to say around this topic, Alex, [00:41:09] and obviously it’s been a big part of my [00:41:12] life and, and my family raised my [00:41:15] family as part of Hillsong Church and, we actually planted [00:41:18] churches my wife and I in England [00:41:21] that were Hillsong churches.

So we’ve definitely been in [00:41:24] that and, done the tours and the songs [00:41:27] and we’ve really built, a lot of that alongside [00:41:30] many people. So it’s obviously like a huge part of [00:41:33] our lives. But I think that reflecting on that [00:41:36] time it was like lockdown and then things [00:41:39] changed.

What do you do about things that you can’t control? [00:41:42] And there was so much in that season that we couldn’t [00:41:45] control. And that kind of happened , and there’s obviously been a [00:41:48] lot of conversation and a lot of things that have been [00:41:51] shared about what happened with Hillsong, so we don’t need to talk about that [00:41:54] here.

But I think that [00:41:57] personally and as a family, you just have to ask [00:42:00] yourself, well, what can we control? What do [00:42:03] we believe here? What’s important to us here? And you [00:42:06] have to make your own decisions and you have to make sure [00:42:09] that you protect your own soul [00:42:12] and your own relationship with God, and you protect your [00:42:15] family.

And you keep going. You keep [00:42:18] following the Lord. You keep going after what he’s put on your [00:42:21] life. And that’s easy to [00:42:24] say. But it is a huge thing to go [00:42:27] through and obviously you touched on it just before [00:42:30] Alex, is that you’ve got experiences like that in your [00:42:33] past as well. So I feel like this is a shared [00:42:36] experience for Christians, for people who have been part of church [00:42:39] life, is we have these, moments of, change that [00:42:42] we have to navigate. Seasons change. What can you do about [00:42:45] the natural seasons changing? Nothing. You, you [00:42:48] come out of winter into spring. What did we do about that? You can’t do [00:42:51] anything about it. You just have to thank God [00:42:54] for the new and what he’s [00:42:57] about to do and for the day we’re living in right [00:43:00] now.

And we’re in this time where we’re fully embracing [00:43:03] the day and fully embracing the new season. And I [00:43:06] think , these are the best times to be alive and [00:43:09] very exciting times ahead. Really excited about [00:43:12] what is happening with the comments and the new [00:43:15] music that’s coming.

And I can’t wait for you to hear more of it, [00:43:18] Alex. There’s, yeah. Let’s talk about it. Tell, tell [00:43:21] us about the project. Why is it called Commons? Why the [00:43:24] xs? What about your new albums that you just released? What are [00:43:27] you loving about those albums and what are your hopes [00:43:30] for the project? Well, yeah, we decided on the name [00:43:33] Commons.

It’s like a a common space, like [00:43:36] in, parts of the world, like the uk like, it’s literally like [00:43:39] common land in the middle of like a built up area that belongs [00:43:42] to sort of no one. It’s a space for everybody to come and, and [00:43:45] exist and be, and, and so we, we love that picture. [00:43:48] And then we use the Xs like, which represents [00:43:51] Christ.

So it’s Christ in common. And that’s the thing that un [00:43:54] unifies us as worshipers and certainly everybody who’s [00:43:57] collaborating on the Commons. And the Commons exists [00:44:00] to inspire worship, to help the church sing, [00:44:03] to help people worship. And so every song kind of goes through [00:44:06] that filter.

We’re trying to write songs that are a worship leader’s [00:44:09] best friend that are gonna help. What we are doing on a [00:44:12] weekly basis. And so we’re really [00:44:15] decided about wanting to start with new songs so [00:44:18] that this first project is 11 of the [00:44:21] 12 songs that brand new songs. And we got a [00:44:24] really deep commitment to continuing to write new [00:44:27] songs and to bring new songs through, find and bring through [00:44:30] new songwriters.

And then the second [00:44:33] project we’re about to release called it’s Live in Manila [00:44:36] project is a collection of some of the new common [00:44:39] songs and then some of the songs that Ruben and I have written [00:44:42] through the years. And that is shaping up to [00:44:45] be a really exciting project as well. Definitely.

[00:44:48] Yeah. So the first song for that comes out this Friday, [00:44:51] Alex. So, which is the Creed, this I believe. And then on [00:44:54] from there a couple weeks later, I think we’re releasing still, [00:44:57] and then the album comes out. I think it’s early [00:45:00] October

yeah, well, it’s happening. I’m, I’m gonna grab all the links and share [00:45:03] ’em everywhere and make sure everybody, because I love your guys’ [00:45:06] commitment to serving worship leaders who are looking [00:45:09] for great songs for their churches. That seems to be what you want to [00:45:12] do and what God has gifted you to do.

So I love that you’re just [00:45:15] leaning in hard on that. That’s so good. Do you guys have any [00:45:18] final words of encouragement for the worship leaders both [00:45:21] live and those who will listen after or watch after the fact?

Yeah, [00:45:24] my parting encouragement would just be to keep [00:45:27] going. Don’t throw away your confidence. Don’t lose [00:45:30] sight of why it is that you got into this in the [00:45:33] first place. Whether it’s a moment where you can kind of look back and go, [00:45:36] oh, I remember when, like, I first was inspired by [00:45:39] hearing a worship song where God did something in my [00:45:42] life through music.

Go back to that place and [00:45:45] kind of go, oh yeah, What did that unlock in you? And then what’s [00:45:48] God done along the way? And I think sometimes when we step back [00:45:51] and we look at the fact that he’s actually been [00:45:54] writing this story all along and you can see him [00:45:57] weaving the good in our lives, let that be an [00:46:00] encouragement to you that he’s gonna continue to do that.

Even if you’re in a [00:46:03] season that might feel a bit discouraging or you might be feeling a [00:46:06] little bit tired that happens to all of us. You might be a writer, [00:46:09] you might feel like you’ve got a bit of writer’s block, or it feels just really [00:46:12] hard at the moment. Give yourself a bit of grace. [00:46:15] But just remember that \ God is at work in your life [00:46:18] that he is weaving a really good story together and lean [00:46:21] into that.

I would just say don’t allow your [00:46:24] courage to be robbed from you. You might have a day [00:46:27] where you feel like you’re depleted of any sense of [00:46:30] confidence or anything like that. But I would [00:46:33] say like just continue to encourage yourself in the Lord and [00:46:36] find that inner strength and that inner place.

Just ’cause you have a [00:46:39] bad day doesn’t mean you need to have a bad [00:46:42] week or a bad month. And I would just say keep going. [00:46:45] And yeah, don’t give up, but just keep your confidence, keep your [00:46:48] courage. That’s so good. The overarching [00:46:51] theme I keep hearing is God is the God of the seasons he [00:46:54] walks with us through the seasons and he’s doing a beautiful [00:46:57] thing through all of it.

So I love it. Thank you guys both. [00:47:00] Reuben, I know you gotta bounce to an appointment, but Ben do you have time for [00:47:03] two Academy student questions about songwriting? For sure. [00:47:06] Let’s do it.

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