What Is Worship In Spirit and Truth Mean?

John 4 may be one of the most well-known passages in the Bible about worship. But what exactly is “worship in Spirit and Truth”? And as worship leaders and pastors, how do we plan our services to facilitate the kind of worship that the Father is seeking? The venerable Bob Kauflin joins us on the podcast today to answer these very vital questions! I promise you’ll be fascinated by his insights!

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Be sure to check out Bob’s excellent books for worship leaders. They are MUST reads:
Worship Matters (Amazon)
True Worshipers (Amazon)
Bob Kauflin’s Website
Bob on Twitter – @bkauflin



Spirit & Truth Worship: When the awakening of the Spirit to the work of the Son leads us to the Father. – Tweet That!

Spirit and Truth worship is a Trinitarian way of approaching God. – Bob Kauflin – Tweet That!

Jesus is the temple, the priest & the sacrifice, through which we can now worship the Father. – Bob Kauflin – Tweet That!

No one can worship the Father without being born again (by the Spirit), who leads them to the Truth (Jesus). – Tweet That!

God will not be honored by less than heart-engaged worship. – Tweet That!

Spirit & Truth Worship includes: engagement, sincerity, authenticity, passion, enthusiasm, genuineness. – Tweet That!

A lot of people sincerely and passionately worship idols. – Tweet That!

In corporate worship, do what God commands, don’t do what God forbids, & use scriptural wisdom for everything else. – Tweet That!

Worship in Truth means, worshipping God not for who we want him to be, or who we imagine him to be, but for who He really is. – Tweet That!

Mental engagement is required in worship. Think about what you’re singing & saying & respond in ways that are appropriate. – Tweet That!

Lyrical vagueness has clouded the clarity of the gospel we are called to rejoice in. – Tweet That!

We don’t understand the difference between songs that feel good, and songs that are actually good for us – Bob Kauflin – Tweet That!

A song that causes you to focus on the creativity rather than the Word of God is not a helpful song for the Church. – Tweet That!

The aim of all our songs is that the Word of Christ would dwell in us richly. – Tweet That!

During worship planning, find all the ways you can to help people engage in meaningful ways with God’s Word. – Tweet That!

During our services people should be built into Christ, not into us. – Tweet That!

In our services we have nothing better to give people than the knowledge of God revealed through Jesus Christ. – Tweet That!


Alex Enfiedjian 00:11 Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the worship team podcast. My name is Alex Enfiedjian. And I am your host. Today is Episode 23 of the podcast. And I have the great privilege of talking to one of my heroes, Bob kauflin, who is an author of two of my favorite books, worship matters and true worshipers, and also the director of sovereign grace music who is consistently putting out super biblical, super congregational music. So really thrilled to have Bob on the podcast to talk about worshiping in spirit and in truth today, that is the topic worship in spirit and in truth, what is it? How do we do it? And as worship leaders, how do we plan our services well, to facilitate that kind of worship, because that is the kind of worship that the Father is seeking. So let’s jump right into my conversation today with Bob kauflin. Hey, everybody, I am super excited to introduce Bob kauflin, who’s a huge role model and a huge mentor of mine, even though this is the first time he and I have ever met. So Bob, thank you so much for for being on the podcast today.

Bob Kauflin 01:26 Oh, it’s it’s my total joy. Thanks for thanks for your kind words.

Alex Enfiedjian 01:29 Yeah, I’m excited. Bob, I’m sure our listeners know who you are. But if they don’t, can you just tell them a little bit about who you are, where you are and what you’re doing?

Bob Kauflin 01:39 Yeah, I’m not so sure they know who I am. Yeah, and the director, sovereign grace music. I’ve been doing this for 19 years and been a pastor for 30. I help Well, in leading sovereign grace music, our mission statement is to produce Christ exalting songs and training for local churches from local churches. So we put out actually about, we’ve worked on about 60 projects, and some of the more popular songs to be before the throne of God above, and all I have is Christ and behold, our God, those are some of the three ones that people might know. But yeah, I serve our family of churches and seek to serve those who are involved in planning and leading corporate worship.

Alex Enfiedjian 02:24 Yeah, and you’ve written several books, you’re actually the most well known book is called worship matters. And I’d say that that is honestly, on the very top of my list for worship leaders to read. So everybody should definitely get worship matters. And Bob, the reason that you’re on the show today is to talk about probably the most important aspect of worship, which is worship in spirit and in truth. And you have spent a lot of time thinking about worship over the years. And in God’s word, it says that he is seeking worshipers who worship Him in spirit and in truth. So that’s a huge deal, because it’s basically telling us exactly what God wants for us in our worship. So I wanted to ask you to start the podcast off, what exactly is worship in spirit? And what exactly is worship in truth? And are these two separate things? Or is this one thing with two different sides?

Bob Kauflin 03:23 Well, that’s a pretty deep question to start the podcast. I like to I like to go deep, fast,

Bob Kauflin 03:28 but I’ll do my best. I think, well, commonly. People say that worshipping spirit is, you know, worship that’s from the heart. It’s authentic. It’s genuine. It’s not just formal. It’s not just ritual. It’s internalized. And then worship in truth would be worship that aligns with who God is and how he wants us to worship him. That’s the truth. And and both those thoughts have scriptural roots. In fact, when Jesus in his conversation with a woman, she’s asking him, you know, this theological question, Where should we worship? You know, the Samaritans were superior, my gears, em, you worship, you’re in Jerusalem. And Jesus answers for just a little context. You worship what you do not know, we worship what we know for salvation is from the Jews. But the hours coming in is now here. When the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth for the father is seeking such people to worship Him. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. So in one sense, Jesus was saying, hey, it’s not about geography and location. It’s about how you come to God. And it’s not it’s not based on where you are. It’s based on who you come through. So, as I’ve read, you know, different commentaries on this study the passage, I think spirit in spirit and truth is really One thing. And what I believe Jesus is saying to the Samaritan woman first is that you need to come to God through God, through spirit and truth. Jesus is the one who later on john 14 says, I’m the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus is the truth of God, he is, he is the image of God in the flesh. So everything we want to know about God truly, we know through Jesus Christ. And of course, you know, after this conversation with a Samaritan woman, Jesus goes on to to bear our sins of the cross and become the only way by which we can approach God first timothy two five says, There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. And then there’s the spirit part, worship in spirit and truth. And just a couple chapters later, Jesus is talking to the crowds in Jerusalem, he is talking about the spirit in chapter seven, who everyone who believes in him, you know, that they shall have rivers of water flowing from him, and it will, and what he was talking about was the spirit. So you

Unknown Speaker 06:21 have all these

Bob Kauflin 06:22 illusions to and there are other illusions in the old testament to, you know, the spirit filling God’s people. So I believe that when Jesus says, those who worship the Father must worship in spirit and truth, that that Jesus is pointing to the Trinity, pointing to the fact that, that we must come to God in the way that only he can make possible. And it’s coming to him through the finished substitutionary death of Jesus Christ for our sins, and through the Spirit of God, who gives life and enables us to know him. That’s a short answer to that question.

Alex Enfiedjian 07:07 That’s actually really fascinating, Bob, so kind of what you’re saying is, the father is seeking worshippers who come through the truth, who is Jesus? I am the truth. Right? And by the Spirit, I’ve never heard that before. But that’s, is that what you’re saying? Yes, that you caught it. That’s exactly right. That’s fascinating. And super interesting, because I always, you know, had heard that it’s like, are like, we come to worship him from our spirits by the Spirit. And we do it with an informed view of God as the truth. But and those

Bob Kauflin 07:41 Yeah, and those things are true, what what I said doesn’t negate those things. I just think that Jesus is saying something more profound than that, something more significant than that. Because you can, you can know true things about God. And you can perform right acts towards God. But unless you come to him through Jesus Christ, you cannot worship Him. So first Peter to five talks about how all our sacrifices are made acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. And I was just actually before our podcast, I was just preparing for this Sunday. And the scripture that we’re planning to use is going to be Hebrews 1019, through 23, this is kind of in the middle of the singing, we always we typically put a scripture, and it’s there for brothers, since we have confidence tend to enter the holy places through the blood of Jesus, through the new and loving way that he opened for us through the curtain that is through his flesh. And since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near. So so it’s through Jesus that we have to come. So you know, in one sense, Jesus isn’t saying to the Samaritan woman, that location is unimportant. He’s saying that location, the new location is him. He’s the new temple, when the Jews when he said, I am gonna tear this temple down and raised up in three days, you know, the Jew said, you know, why is he going to take this, you know, destroy this, tap this physical temple. And then john adds while he was speaking of himself, as the temple, so it’s just, it is fascinating. Jesus is the temple. He’s the priest, and he’s the sacrifice through which we can now worship the Father.

Alex Enfiedjian 09:29 Wow, you should write a book about that, Bob. Well, I tried to put that in true worshipers. That’s good. We’re definitely gonna talk about true worshipers, too, by the end of this podcast, because I think a lot of this content you cover in that as well. So So Bob, let me ask you another way to also understand what you’re saying is that no one can worship God without being born again, and yet only be born again by the Spirit. And so who brings life Are our spirits? Exactly right? So the spirit makes a human who is an enemy of God born again, they are born again by the Spirit to become a child of God. And they, the Spirit leads them to Jesus, who is the truth, they’re saved, they worship God properly through all of that. So now let’s go back and kind of break it down to the maybe lessor view that we had, that you said, you know, you’re not negating the lessor view. We’re just worshiping from our spirits by the spirit with a properly informed view of God. Let’s talk a little bit about those two things. Yes. Why as Christians? Why do we need both spirit and truth? Why do we need to worship God from our emotional, spiritual state, but also to have an informed view of God?

Bob Kauflin 10:48 Well, that’s a great question. And when when the Bible speaks of the heart, you know, we’re to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Those aren’t necessarily four categories or their way of describing someone’s whole being. But it starts with the heart. And the heart describes the core of our being, typically in Scripture. So it’s what we think with is what we make decisions with, it’s what we feel with, well, God will will not be honored by less than the heart engaged worship. So we read in Psalm 108, I love this. My heart is steadfast Oh, God, I will sing and make melody with all my being. So with with everything in me, Jesus, you know excoriated the people in Amos who, who praised him with their their lips and not their hearts. So God is seeking those who would give Him glory from the heart. So that would that would include things like engagement, enthusiasm, sincerity, Authenticity, genuineness, passion, you know, all those things that that are part of our hearts. So yeah, God is is worthy, and deserving of our glorifying him with our hearts. Having said that, a lot of people sincerely worship idols. They, they are very passionate, they’re very sincere, they’re authentic. But they either don’t worship God for who he is, or, or they worship a false god. So let me give an example. You know, when when someone sings to a God, for taking worship is singing, which it’s not alone. But that’s what most people think of when someone is singing to a God who holds no terror for those who sin. That’s not the God of the Bible, when someone’s worship, a God who, who only wants to bless them and make them feel good. No matter how it happens, it’s about worshipping the God of the Bible. And but let me put on the flip side, when someone worships a God, who is far away and distant and doesn’t care about what we’re doing. They’re not worshiping the God of the Bible. And then when we, when we gather, you know, and we perform our liturgies, we go through our liturgies, because everyone has a liturgy. So it’s what you do more than one week in a row. When we, when we meet together to worship God together, there are ways to do that, that are better than others. And there are ways to do that, that are right and ways to do that, that are wrong. I mean, scripture is filled with examples of people who who sought to worship God in their own way, with their own ideas, and were killed. We have to worship God in the way he’s prescribed in Scripture. So the way I put it is, do what God commands. Don’t do what God forbids, and use scriptural wisdom for everything else. As silly example, or extravagant example would be, you know, we don’t come together and kill animals for the glory of God. You know, God forbids any kind of sacrifice now, because we have the one final complete sacrifice for our sins. If, if a church gathers and they meet, and they never use the Bible, you don’t worry, you’re not worshiping God in truth in that sense. God has to reveal Himself to us before we can respond to him rightly. So that’s what that’s a part of what worshiping God in truth means, and, and the obvious effect of that should be the inner meetings. in our personal lives, we are seeking more and more to know God through His Word to know God for who he really is. Not for who we imagine him to me, not for who we want him to be, not for whom our culture says he is, but for who he really is. And boy, we have a lot of examples in culture of, you know, how culture perceives God? And how the Bible portrays God?

Alex Enfiedjian 15:25 Yeah, you kind of started to talk about it there for a second, can you maybe give some more examples of how you see the church in America? I’m saying the church in America just because, I mean, globally, it’s too hard to speak. But what we see you and I see a lot of how do you see the church in America failing or weak at worshiping in spirit or worshiping in truth? Maybe they’ve, I mean, you can give examples of both sides, like people who have swung too far one way, or churches who have swung too far to the truth side, like how do you see the church in America not doing a good job of having a balanced worship experience on Sunday mornings? Sure. Well, I think

Bob Kauflin 16:04 people who know God well, and who have been truly saved, they, they they know their sins have been paid for. Because Jesus was their substitute at the cross, because he died in their place and endure the wrath of God for them took their punishment. And they’re forgiven and reconciled to God, those people who know that should be the happiest people in the world. Not not like a shallow happiness, but maybe joyful be a better word, you know, you should come into a room full of those people and be able to see, hey, these people have been really affected by something. And they are, they’re really glad about it. And I would say, Alex, that in a number of churches, you can’t see that, you know, if someone were to walk in the room, and people do all the time, unbelievers, they walk in the room and think, boy, these people are just kind of going through the motions and a lot of mourning, and singing and dancing, you know, some people checking their phones, and you know that that’s not an engaged heart. And that reflects not just on the people in the church, but it reflects on God and His glory. Psalm 34, five says, Those who look to him are radiant, their faces will never be ashamed. So if we’re not looking to the Lord, our faces probably are going to be radiant. And that’s going to show so I think churches that maybe preach good things, but but have no emotional engagement. You could say that they would be weak in the

Alex Enfiedjian 17:36 model that Bob, how do you or your audit or your senior pastor, how do you guys model that joy and engagement for your church to kind of create that culture of joy and excitement?

Bob Kauflin 17:48 Oh, that’s a great question, Alex. We just think about what we’re singing insane. And we respond in ways that are appropriate to what we’re seeing insane. So, you know, it requires engagement, mental engagement. And so we will raise our hands will, will sing loud will be engaged, as as we sing. You know, I encourage people to pursue just natural expression. What what how you would respond naturally in any? any situation? Yeah, we see it in sports. If some team wins, some tournament, you know, the quant the fat the crowds go while the crazy are they score a goal and, you know, whatever the game, it’s people respond naturally. You don’t have to tell them, Hey, get excited look like you’re happy. They just do because they recognize what’s really taking place. Right? Well, I think when we gathers the church, a lot of times people don’t recognize what’s really taking place.

Alex Enfiedjian 18:54 Right. Do you think it’s because like, lyrical vagueness has clouded the clarity of what we’re excited about. I mean, I’ve noticed that a lot of churches that I’ve attended over the last few months have, like, a lot of the songs I’m like, I’m not really sure what I’m really saying or singing about. And it’s, you can’t, yeah, the music can make you feel emotional, but you’re not really sure what it is you’re emotional about. So do you think that’s part of the problem? Absolutely.

Bob Kauflin 19:26 I think that there’s a, we don’t always understand the difference between songs that feel good, and songs that are actually good for us. There are a lot of songs that feel good, and they’re not heresy.

Unknown Speaker 19:38 They’re just not

Bob Kauflin 19:40 particularly compelling when it comes to the truth that the truth is that they’re, they’re seeking to communicate, and maybe because of vagueness, it may be because of a lack of progression. It may be because of an overemphasis on creativity sometimes you’ll you’ll find A song that just is really creative, but it causes you to think more about the creativity than than the one you’re singing about. So that’s, that’s certainly a factor. It can be a factor of shallow preaching, you know, for churches and being built into the Word of God and the gospel, they’re probably not going to respond to those things in the songs. So you’ll have to go to other things to move people’s hearts, you’ll have to go to your new arrangements or, you know, cool videos behind your words or, you know, incredible lighting techniques, or new Synth Pad sounds or, you know, those kinds of things where none of those were bad necessarily, although I’m not a big fan of moving pictures behind lyrics. But there are, it’s unhelpful, it’s

Unknown Speaker 20:46 bad. When

Bob Kauflin 20:46 we go to those kinds of things to move people move people’s hearts, when we what we should be going to is what God has given us. He’s given us His Word. He’s given us the gospel, which is the power of God, for the salvation of everyone who believes, if we don’t really believe that, we will, we’ll try to use other things to move people’s hearts.

Alex Enfiedjian 21:08 Yeah, but how would you define a song that is good for us? Like what are the elements of a song that is a congregationally? Health life bringing song? Yeah,

Bob Kauflin 21:23 that’s a that’s a great question. Well, I get a scripture, where Colossians 316 says, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing Psalms, and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. You there’s probably that one kind of song that will do that. I think that’s what psalms, hymns and spiritual songs means. There’s going to be a variety of songs that we use to engage with God as we sing. But the aim of all of them is that the word of Christ would dwell in us richly, that word of Christ is the gospel. So what Jesus did, why he did it, who he is, what difference it makes in our lives. That’s what we should be singing about. And it doesn’t mean every song has to, you know, fully articulate the gospel, some songs could be a response to it. Some songs could be, you know, the articulation of it. Some songs could be how the gospel relates to your different things. But I wrote a post on my blog worship matters, number of years ago, where I said, the kind of thing the kinds of songs we’ll be singing this year or something. And I said, the kinds of songs you want to look for are songs that people want to sing, songs that people can sing, and songs that people should sing, sing songs that enable people to know God better through His Word, not just through the song, but the song should be pointing to the word. Things that are things that God has said about himself things that God has said about us things that God has said about how we’re to relate to him. And, you know, while I appreciate the, the the drive for creativity, that that’s the voice for creativity, it’s coming from another a number of different places. We just have to be careful there, there are boundaries to creativity. Not all creativity is good. David wasn’t wasn’t encouraged for his creativity was bringing the ark back to Jerusalem. You know, with us, and he’ll they both died. So, so creativity isn’t always the best way. I like someone said once. Creativity isn’t something we do. It’s a way we do something. And as long as we keep that in mind, you know that creativity is a way to enable the word of Christ dwell richly in people then then what things will be fine.

Alex Enfiedjian 23:54 Yeah, I like I like what you said about how if creativity is causing us to think more about how creative The song is, then yes, it’s missed the points. And I want to encourage worship leaders to be careful with that, because I’ve just noticed a lot more of that lately in the church. And I feel like it’s, it’s a distraction, at least for me, I it’s hard for me to, to be focused on Jesus when I’m thinking about what am I singing? Exactly. And so yeah, but yeah, Bob, can I ask you some, some more questions? Maybe just kind of some practical ways that you can encourage worship leaders to think more biblically about their approach to worship like Yes, yeah. Especially in terms of service planning and liturgy. And I might actually ask you how your service looks as you try to lead people in spirit and in truth, but But first, just kind of give us some practical things that we can all take to our churches and do in terms of planning our services around spirit and truth worship.

Bob Kauflin 24:54 Well, it probably that’s a great question, Alex. love these great questions. The thing that’s changed for me most over the years is just in more intentionally incorporating the Word of God into what I do.

Unknown Speaker 25:08 You know, we

Bob Kauflin 25:09 have different tools we can use, obviously, songs are the primary one, our instruments are primary one. And then what we say we might say stuff. I want people to be really thinking about the Word of God. Because it’s the Word of God that that has the life. It’s the Word of God that’s authoritative. You know, Paul says in Romans, you know, how does faith come with faith, faith comes through the message of Christ, we are to be giving people words that God himself has spoken. So so whether that’s at the beginning of the end, the middle, you, including what you say, showing scriptures on the screen, during instrumental breaks it you know, just I want, I want to find all the ways I can to help people engage in meaningful ways with God’s word. So that that might be the first thing I’d say. I don’t. I mean, I see so many folks leading the music and services and events. And, you know, they don’t bring a Bible with them. When they do use the Bible. It’s it’s kind of as a filler. They’ll quote scriptures haphazardly, and all that communicate something. I think even reading, reading the Bible from like a physical book has more weight to it than say, reading it from your iPad or something. I mean, it’s not wrong to do that. But I think it’s worth thinking about, well, maybe I should bring my Bible up here. And, you know, let people see me holding it. Because all that Bible does is hold does work. That’s all. That’s not like, like my iPhone that does, you know, gazillion things. But that’s enough. It’s enough for just to hold God’s word. And it’s kind of a physical reminder, visual reminder that, no, we are really basing what we do on the authority of God’s Word. So that’d be the first encouragement, then the second, and either one of these cubbon. First, is to, to really work at being affected by the cross. You know, when we gather, it really is a celebration of what Jesus has done, and he’s lived, he’s died, he’s risen from the dead, he’s ascended to his father’s right hand, he’s interceding for us. But at the heart of what Jesus has done, his his death at Calvary. And that’s because apart from that, we would still be under condemnation, we would still be enemies of God, objects of his wrath. And Jesus, when He bore our sins on the cross. He took our punishment, and he purchased our forgiveness. And he brought us near to God, so that we could enjoy eternity with Him forever. That is right him. And he adopted us into his family. He filled us with His Spirit. I mean, they’re just all kinds of ramifications, consequences, what Jesus did at the cross. Now, the resurrection was the validation of what took place to the cross. You can’t have the cross without the resurrection. But neither can you have the resurrection without the cross. So I would, I would encourage leaders to read, read the Gospels read gospel passages, read books, like the cross of Christ by john Stott. You know, in my place condemned, he stood by Mark devere. The Christ centered life by CJ MAHANEY, my senior pastor, the gospel for real life by Jerry bridges. I mean, they’re just, they’re just a ton. Get familiar with the gospel in your own life, and it will start coming out and you’re leading.

Alex Enfiedjian 29:15 That’s really good. Can you talk maybe a little bit about your, what your services look like? I know, I think you guys have like times of like an open mic where people can share in the assembly, like what I’ve been teaching them. And I mean, those are all things that you’re trying to take what God’s word says, and say, This is how worship is supposed to look in a local church. So we’re going to try to do these things. What are some of those elements obviously, like you said, a lot of the word you bring, I think you start your every service with, with the word, right? We do. Yeah, we do have obviously interspersed through the music, you’re focusing on the word, and then you’ve got this time of sharing. What other kind of things do you guys do?

Bob Kauflin 29:59 Well Look, I’ll just walk through it, that might be the easiest thing. We start with a call to worship, which is always a scripture, the Word of God begins our time together, we do a couple songs, then we’ll do another scripture. Or we might do a creed, we might do a confession, we might do a testimony, we might do communion, you know, there’s something in between those songs that kind of bring weight brings weight to them, and grounds them in something outside the music. And then we do two or three other songs, usually. And during that time, yeah, we have a congregation of Mike where someone can come up and share what we say is a prophetic word, they can come up and share a scripture, you know, just an impression from God, they think is from God, we don’t give it the authority of Scripture. But it is a way that God can speak to us to encourage his people and point us to Christ. So that maybe you know, one or two people may have something like that. And then we’ll have a pastoral prayer will take five minutes, to pray for just different areas, the world, our country, will you always pray for a church in the area, we’ll pray for another sovereign grace church will. And they will pray for our leaders will pray for different events that are happening, then we’ll pray for specific people in the church that are that are sick, or something’s happening in their lives, or they’re on mission or different things. That’s been a really significant addition to our meeting. We added that when we started this church four years ago, and it was, it’s just been one of the best things we did. Now we welcome people offering announcements, and then then we’ll have the word which is usually 45 minutes or so. And then we’ll do a song or communion afterwards. And then we’ll have a benediction at the end another week, we’ll close out with the Word of God as well. And what we want to do is send people in God’s grace, we want to send them, reminding them of what God has done to enable them to live a life worthy of the gospel. Yeah,

Alex Enfiedjian 31:55 I love Bob how word centric your services are. Because I think a lot of churches have become like music or even concert centric, where it’s the focus is about the experience of the lights and the band. And it’s loud. And I’m not opposed to all that stuff. But I love that you guys are saying no, no, the focus is the word of God, which reveals the truth of God, by the Spirit of God in it, it moves our hearts. And I bet you, Bob, that your church sings louder than all the churches doing all the fancy stuff, because the focus is on something different than just, hey, look at this almost pseudo concert that we’re doing. You know, we have a loud singing church. Yeah. That’s so good. That’s so good. And I want to encourage the listeners to take that to heart as well. So what we’re what we’re called to do is lead people in worship, that is spirit and truth, worship, not copy the church down the street, or so I love how you guys have looked at what the Scriptures say that our liturgy should be. And not what is this XYZ church doing? Yeah,

Bob Kauflin 33:00 it’s not like we can’t learn from other churches. And we add the pastoral prayer was something that, you know, there is there is some example of it in Scripture. But we saw that a few other churches and thought, Wow, that’s really powerful. And the liturgy is, it’s just gotta be intentional. You know, we have to ask, is it accomplishing what God wants to accomplish in our meetings, people should be built into Christ, not into us. Now, I mean, there is certainly a horizontal aspect to our time together. I mean, first Corinthians 14 talks about that were to edify each other, build up one another, but we’re all being built into Christ. And that’s, that’s what we want to see happen as a result of our meetings. And if our liturgies aren’t accomplishing that, then something should change.

Alex Enfiedjian 33:53 Yeah, yeah, that’s really good. Bob, I want to shift gears for just the end of our time together and talk about your new book that you released called true worshipers? Because I feel like this is talking a lot about what you and I are discussing right now. Tell Tell me a little bit about this book, tell our listeners what made what made you write this book? And what do you hope that people will get out of it as they read it?

Bob Kauflin 34:18 What made me write this book was that it was the book I was supposed to write, supposed to write, when I sent in my book proposal for worship matters.

Unknown Speaker 34:27 They

Bob Kauflin 34:29 thought it was going to be thought worship matters was going to be a book for you know, just everyday Christian. And when I wrote the first draft, CJ Manny, my dear friend and senior pastor at the time, said, You know, I think you’re like writing to try to write to everybody. You’re writing to worship teams, right to leaders, right to pastors, right? People, the congregation, you got to focus. So what I decided to focus on was leaders. So about five, six years later, I Think Justin Taylor, who works for crossway emailed me and said, hey, how would you like to write that book that you were supposed to write. So that’s what I did. And it’s a book meant to encourage any Christian in a church who wants to better understand how how God views our worship in all of life, and how God views our worship in the meeting.

Alex Enfiedjian 35:27 It’s a very important book, and I’m going to link both of the books in the show notes so our listeners can get them and I just say, you know, Bob, thank you for equipping the church. So well, with your Bible centered thinking and balanced, fair, gracious approach to all of this, it’s, it’s been really helpful to me, and I know the listeners will benefit a lot by reading both of these books. So I’ll put those in the show notes. Do you have any final encouragement to our listeners, Bob?

Bob Kauflin 35:51 Well, I was just thinking, as you were saying that if if, if you are a worship leader listening to this, never underestimate how, how glorious Jesus Christ is. We get so easily in it enamored with the things God has created. And we neglect how or fail to remember and see how great our Creator and Redeemer really Yes, I find a lot a lot of leaders are trying to fill the gaps that have been left by a lack of dependence on the gospel and the Word of God. And they fill it with, as I said, before, technology and relationship and musicianship and all kinds of things. Jesus is glorious enough. We have nothing better to give people than a knowledge of God through Jesus Christ. So in your preparation, seek to love people by giving them a clear, compelling, consistent picture of who Jesus is, and what he accomplished. When he gave his life in our place at the cross. That’d be my encouragement and love your wife. Well. Love your kids to go. Don’t sacrifice your family on the altar of ministry.

Alex Enfiedjian 37:36 Amen. Amen. Hey, Bob. I’m sure people are gonna want to keep up with you online. What’s the best way for them to do that?

Bob Kauflin 37:44 I have a blog. Worship matters calm. been doing it for about 10 years. I I am sporadic on it. But I’m trying to be more faithful. There’s a ton of material on there. And there’s a contact me button on the blog, and then sovereign grace music. I think it’s just sovereign grace. Music calm.

Alex Enfiedjian 38:03 Awesome. Cool. Hey, Bob, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and for sharing with us today. My joy, Alex, look forward to seeing you somewhere. All right. Well, that’s it for today. I hope this episode was super helpful to you. I just want to encourage you guys to be super intentional on how you plan your services. Making sure to keep the Word of God Central, and help the people of God worship Him in spirit and in truth. God bless you as you do that this week, next week, and many weeks to come. I will see you back next month.