Worship Leaders & Senior Pastors: How to Build a Thriving Partnership

  Speaker 5 Worship leaders and senior pastors should be unified, supportive partners in ministry. But learning how to have a good, healthy working relationship with your senior pastor can be a challenge. Differing understandings of the worship service, unspoken expectations, personality clashes, and poor communication can lead to disunity and division between the two most visible leaders in the church. Today, we’re going to talk about how to have a healthier, more productive relationship with your senior pastor, and I’m excited for you to hear from our two guests. We have Hans Ives, who is Greg Lauri’s worship leader and has been working with Pastor Greg Lauri for the last 28 years at Harvest Church and all of the Harvest crusades. And we have C. J. Blunt from Church on the Highlands, which has 27 campuses across Alabama and many states in the US. And he has been working with Pastor Chris Hodges for the last 17 years. Both pastors have very different leadership styles, so you’re going to get a lot of wisdom from both of our guests today. Let’s start with Hans. Hans, how does Pastor Greg Laurier operate in his relationship with you?

Speaker 1 He watches people for a while, and then he gets a handle on who he thinks they are, what their capabilities are. And then he makes a decision in regards to, is that person the right fit for what I think the position needs to be? So he You’re slow in that. And then once he feels confident that you are that person that’s going to fill the role that he has, then he gives you direction in regards to that, and then says, just go be you. And it gives parameters, like Here’s the stuff that I’m interested in. But he’s definitely not a micromanager at all. He is, I’ve given you the parameters. I trust you. I’ve seen what you can do. Now go be creative within those parameters and do your thing. If I have an issue or if I have a concern, if I want to redirect you, I’ll certainly let you know.

Speaker 3 How about you, CJ? What’s Pastor Chris Lodges like?

Speaker 2 Honestly, if you don’t mind, Alex, I would love to start by even honouring Hans. When you said over 28 years, I I think about just things, Hans, that you paved away for people like me to be a part of a church and a worship leader. And so I really want to honour you first in that because I just can’t imagine all the different dynamics that you’ve been able to experience, but then opening the way even more for somebody like me to come on.

Speaker 1 That’s a blessing, Ceejia. Thank you.

Speaker 2 I don’t really mean that. I think it’s important to understand who paved away, and things that you’ve done that I didn’t have to do, to be able to do what I get to do. So that’s the thing. But then let Can we just set the floor, Alex? Because we are in a new season of leadership. So when Alex says, How is my relationship with Pastor Chris? Was is the keyword. Pastor Chris is now the founding pastor of our church, and we have a new senior pastor and Pastor Mark Pettus, which is incredible. And there’s so much to even say about that. But just so you guys get that first so we could set the floor. But Pastor Chris, in my opportunity to be able to serve with him was, man, it was amazing. And here’s I guess the background. Pastor Chris was the phenomenal worship leader still is he’s very musical. He has the understanding of the musical side, but also the spiritual side. And he brings all that together to lead worship. So he’s very gifted in what he sees and what he knows. He’s knowledgeable in that. So even coming in, I had to wrap my mind around that.

Speaker 2 This guy, he actually knows what he’s talking about. If you got a pastor that’s calling out Cors, you know it, Hans. He’s calling out Cors Or, hey, the base player didn’t hit that seven. It’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I better get up on my game. And so for him, that was the understanding going in that I had to understand. But then I know Hans mentioned his pastor was hands off. What most people don’t understand is, Pastor Chris actually gave us the reins to pray through what we believe should happen and then present him with what we thought should happen. So that was always the case. But what I loved was he He understood it. So his hands on approach was not just telling me, hey, I don’t like that. I don’t like that. It was more of asking questions of, so why did you come up with that? And do you feel like this will allow people to get into the presence of God in a way that speaks to new believers, believers that have been here, things like that. So it was very enlightening in his approach to how he was hands on, was not a micromanager at all, but was very specific in high value of worship and understanding the posture of worship.

Speaker 2 And that was really gold for me because it allowed me to understand more that worship is not just music, it’s more of a lifestyle. And so then I was able to bring the music inside of that, and he helped shape that, if that makes sense. He helped shape more of the worship set. We presented it to him. He was the final approval, and then we did it.

Speaker 3 Actually, I’m really excited to talk about the fact that you have just transitioned recently from Pastor Chris being your senior pastor to a new senior pastor, because I think that’s going to unlock a whole lot of insight for us as well, because a lot of people step into a church and they’re starting fresh with someone. And so you get to bring both perspectives, both the 17 years of experience and then also the year and a half of figuring out and readjusting everything and the bumps and the bruises that come along with that. And I’d love to actually ask both of you, maybe I’ll have CJ start, but when you When you first started working with Pastor Chris, were there any bumps in the road? Because a lot of times we think, Oh, a relationship with someone should just be perfect right out the gate.

Speaker 5 But that’s not always the case.

Speaker 3 Do you recall any early on bumps in the road as you began to learn how your pastor operates?

Speaker 2 A hundred %. I love that question because it exposes me as a new face or a new person coming into this church and learning how to lead with my pastor. So many bumps in the road, Alex, but I’ll just give a quick example of one of them. When I first came in, my background is totally different from Pastor Chris’s and the church that I’ve been a part of. I grew up in that business, whole thing there, grew up with gospel music. So my whole framework was totally different coming in. And I had to learn how to adapt to not only the vision, but what was Pastor Chris’s background? What was he bringing to the church? What was this church’s background as well? And so those things for me was I had to learn it all. So first coming in, I just gave him who I was. This is who I am. You hired me for me. And he said that I’m bringing you in because I want you. And I came in and I gave them me. Now, he wanted to give me framework around, I want you in this context. So that’s how he shaped me.

Speaker 2 So one of my first instances I came in, led worship. I had never seen a service in this church before. So my first visual anything experience, I I was on stage leading. And I’m thankful for that because most people don’t get that. But I got the opportunity because he trusted me. Right after that, he pulled me aside. He pulled me in the back after the first service, and he said, all right. And he just asked questions. The first thing was, how did you feel? And I’m like, I feel great, man. Let’s go again. And he’s like, okay, great. Was that song too high for you? And when he asked that question, I was like, okay, is that You want me to answer that? No, I sing the song. And he’s like, was it too high? I was like, no, I don’t think so. And he’s like, and why did you say what you said? And that’s when it started. That was the first initial teaching experience for me, where Pastor Chris was really teaching me in that moment. Did you think about these things before you got up there? And for me, it was eye-opening, because I’ve never had anybody ask those questions.

Speaker 2 And so that was my first, you say bump in the road. That was my first bump, because I’m like, now I’m questioning. I’m like, I feel great. Do I need to feel great? Or do I feel something else? And it allowed me to shift into the mode of, what am I doing to prepare for these moments that That’s through his lens, versus my lens. Does that make sense? And that was a bump in the road, though, because it pulled me back more than launched me too far forward, before I could understand, oh, this is what he is expecting. So that was my first bump in the road.

Speaker 1 There’s a couple of things that I think about, as you’re sharing that, that are really critical to worship leading. Whether he was doing it intentionally or not. My guess is probably intentionally.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was establishing that, and this is my view, that the senior pastor is the worship leader of the church, because they’ve been given the mantle in that sense. They divest a portion of that leadership to us for however many minutes during the service, and then also during the week, as we’re shepherding people, and leading, and picking songs. We do. So he was establishing that relationship. It’s like, Hey, I’m asking you specific questions. And the whole aim for those questions, I’m assuming, was, this is the framework that I want you to operate within. And I think that’s great, because it’s like the Ten Commandments, in the sense of God gave us these Commandments, because here are the parameters that I’m giving you, in order for you to operate to your fullest capacity, and enjoy yourself, and enjoy That’s really mean. That’s really awesome. That first of all, that he would do that, that he had the ability to articulate, and watch, and notice. And man, I’m saying to you, why did you say what you said? Well, goodness sakes of life.

Speaker 2 And my answer, Hans, it I heard everything. I said, I don’t know. I heard it from homeboy down the street. And he’s like, well, that’s why you probably shouldn’t say what you said. For me, I’m like, I thought he was like, man, what you said was But he asked, why did you say it? And so when he said that, nobody never asked me that. So that was enlightening in that, too.

Speaker 1 I would also say that good leadership. I’m sorry to interrupt you, Alex, but I would just say that’s an example of good leadership. Is actually asking a question and pulling something out of them without saying, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes when we have auditions at church, my first question to somebody after they’ve done an audition is, how do you think that went? And I’ll get a pretty good idea of where… Because I know what I think how it went, but I want to know how… Because it informs how I’m going to talk to them. It informs the rest of the conversation.

Speaker 3 You’re always allowed to interrupt Hans, both of you, so please do. I would love to ask both of you before we get into Bumps in the Road with Hans in his early years with Pastor Greg Laurie, do you think that the worship leader then should adapt to… You used the word adapt to CJ. Should we adapt to… If they hired us because we’re us, we’re special, we’re a special a little snowflake. Didn’t you want what we bring? So then how do we adapt, or should we adapt, or is it the senior pastor’s vision that… Yeah, sorry, the question is vague, but do you have any thoughts about that?

Speaker 2 The question, should we adapt? 110 %. Hans said it. The senior pastor is ultimately the worship leader. I think that’s the framework that most worship leaders don’t understand. It’s like, you hired me to be your musical genius, but that’s not the case. He brought you in under the vision of the pastor who has the mantle, like Hans said, and that’s where the blessing flows. And so should we, 100 % of you want to be blessed? You don’t want the friction of this is my show, and then you do your show. That is all seen throughout the service, and it all is filled throughout the service. God is going to do what he wants to do in the service regardless, because he loves his people. I think sometimes as worship leaders, we think he’s doing it because we’re great. And it ain’t the case. We’re a vessel, but we’re unclean. There’s things that we didn’t prepare well with. I didn’t know what I was saying. And he still blessed people. Why? He loves his people. So this understanding, should we? A hundred %. But there is a time where you got to understand who you are, your identity.

Speaker 2 So I think a lot of times, Alex, the problem is people don’t know their identity going in, and it’s shaped in a way that they feel like, I really don’t You know who I am, and this person is trying to make me who they want me to be. You got to be solid in who you are and be confident in knowing this is who I am, but I’ve come under leadership to serve their vision in a way that I could still be me, but now I got parameters. I have to adapt in a way that honours my leadership and what the vision is.

Speaker 1 And I would add to that, that if the senior pastor is indeed the worship leader of the church, which I believe they are, And they’ve been given a mantle, which I believe God has, he’s raised them up in just the same way he’s raised you up. He’s opened the opportunity for them to be the person that they are in that position. When you recognise that and then you’re adapting to that, the covering that’s over you to operate within that, then I’m not trying to say you’re blame shifting, but if you’re operating within their covering, then that means if stuff comes at you, either from your team, or from outside sources or whatever. You’re not going to just say, well, it’s a senior pastor’s fault. You’re not going to say that. That’s not cool. But you’re going to recognise, wait a minute. No, I am doing the right thing because I’m a man under authority.

Speaker 2 And I’m honouring the vision, and I’m honouring what’s been given to me, and I cherish that.

Speaker 1 That’s an amazing privilege. So I have a covering over me. There’s some protection in that for you, which is great. Any ministry, any opportunity to minister is God. God doesn’t need any of us. What you were just saying, CJ, he takes a cricket sticks and draws a straight line. He doesn’t need us to minister to people at all, but he gives us opportunity. And I think we want to 100 %, this is what God has given me to do. I want to be hitting that ceiling all the time, right? And so same thing with, this is what my pastor has told me to do. I want to be creative within all those boundaries. I’m not going to push the envelope for I want to extend the boundary, but I’m going to be as creative as I can. I’m going to be the most of me as I possibly can be within those parameters. I think God blesses that attitude.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that’s great. Hans, if you have something, a bump in the road that you’d like to share that would be insightful, go ahead and interrupt me. Otherwise, I have another question for you, Hans.

Speaker 1 The only thing I would say is that I came in. Our church has been 52 years now, so I’ve been 28. When I came in, I was totally the new guy. I mean, I’ve been around the church for a while, but this was a church that had 20 plus years of history, a liturgy that was well known to many of the people that had been there for that long, certainly staff, senior staff, They all grew up with, Here’s the songs we sing. Here’s all this stuff. I didn’t know those songs to save my life. So here we are in a church service, and Pastor Greg, he starts to do a moment at the end of the service, where he’s calling us to just ask the Holy spirit to come and fill us and equip us for the stuff that we’ve learned, and to use that as the weekend. And he said, Hans, why don’t you lead us in that old song, spirit of the living God? I totally don’t know that song. And this is in front of everybody. He was like, okay, I don’t know that song. I literally had to say that. And he saw that was like the deer in the headlights.

Speaker 1 So what? Guess what he did? He let it.

Speaker 2 You start singing it. Yes.

Speaker 1 Start singing it. And guess what I did the very next morning.

Speaker 2 You learned.

Speaker 1 I learned that wrong.

Speaker 2 You learned it. I learned that song.

Speaker 3 I think that’s such a great point that we should understand that not only is our senior pastor the one that God called to that position, But he also has the context of the entire congregation and the history of certain people and why we made this decision in the past and all these things that we don’t know and we wouldn’t know. We should defer to what they know and their wisdom them based on their knowledge and experience of that particular flock. I love that, Hans.

Speaker 1 I want to add one thing to that, is that our pastors aren’t always going to be right. They’re not always going to be right because they’re humans just like the rest of us. So when they make decisions, occasionally, they’ll make the wrong one. And, okay, join the crowd. Our job is first to serve the Lord. And I think in the process of serving the Lord, we honour the leadership that’s been given to us. I think that that’s a scripture thing. Yes, they may make a wrong decision, and you just flow with it, and God’s good at sorting that out.

Speaker 3 I would love then early bumps in the road. What were some key tactics that you guys used, some strategies, some actions that you took that did begin to help bring unity and foster understanding and deeper communication? What were some things that you did early on or even now that you still do that really help bring unity to you and your pastor? Cj, you want to start?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. No. Simply put, I initiate. I typically don’t wait on my pastor to tell me something or ask me something. I want to initiate with questions, but also how am I doing? And I remember always going through the process of not only do I know this song, I was like, I don’t know this song. I wanted to find out what my pastor like, what songs are you listening to? What are the things that’s in your heart? And I did that early on where nobody told me to do it. And honestly, just being real, I don’t know that I was supposed to. I wasn’t in a position where you just straight up to the senior pastor’s office and, hey, can I talk to you? But I was that person that I went through leadership and I asked, hey, I want to meet with Pastor Chris and just ask some questions. Oh, go for it. So when I did that, I initiated early on to show him that I really wanted to know his heart. I really wanted to know what he saw. I really wanted to know what he even saw in me I need to grow in.

Speaker 2 So I went with those questions, but I also prepared in a way that once I heard that, if he said, I would listen to his conversation. And I remember in his conversations, he would say things like on the stage from the stage. Yeah, because it’s him, blah, blah, blah. And I would just jot it down. And three weeks from there, he would hear that him. Honestly, Alex, I didn’t do this well in the first year. This is another story, and I won’t go there. But the first year, I was not all in. I just didn’t know the culture. I didn’t know anything. So I was really new to it, and I didn’t know how to sit under a senior pastor and listen to messages. But once I figured that out, I was all in. And my awareness for what my pastor loves, I was more aware of those things. So I would push towards that. I would initiate towards it. So when I heard them say something on stage, I’m writing it down. Let’s do that. You know, those are the things that I did early on that I feel like built trust, but also allowed me to build a relationship with him that he knew I wasn’t trying to go rogue.

Speaker 2 I wasn’t trying to go do my own thing and get mad every time I couldn’t do the song I wanted to do. I’m here to serve you, and here’s how I’m going to show it. You didn’t ask me to do this song, but I’m going to throw it in there. And I remember him being like, You threw it in. And I’m like, yeah, no, I know. And that would generate more questions and more conversations with me and him on, okay, tell me about where So that’s how I started.

Speaker 3 That’s amazing. Initiation. It reminds me of a waiter at a restaurant is like watching the person at the table. What do they need? You’re like, anticipating, you’re proactive, you’re trying to serve them before they even think to ask. That’s good. Hans, what were some actions you took to build the relationship with Greg?

Speaker 1 So I had been a part of the ministry, not as the worship leader, as a guitar player, initially, and then a guitar player singing songs and then to worship leader. So it was watch and learn, was what I did. I would do, C. J, what you just said in regards to I was paying attention, getting to know the likes and dislikes. It could be easy for somebody to interpret That all we’re doing is just trying to please your pastor. That’s it. Well, okay, no, that’s not all I’m trying to do. But that is a big part. I mean, once again, it goes back to, is the person you’re serving the leader or not? And yeah, I do want to please them. I don’t want to be a man-pleaser, but I do want to please them in the sense that then I’m a part of the overarching flow of the church.

Speaker 2 Right. That’s great.

Speaker 1 So it was just a lot of watch and learn. And yes, I would ask questions. I remember going into Greg’s office once and asking him, Hey, how’s it going? How do you think we’re doing? How do you think I’m doing? He was like, Fine. Oh, okay. He goes, Yeah. And then I think what that did is that open… He was like, Well, now that you mentioned it, and then I don’t even remember what the conversation was, but he had a couple of ideas, a couple of thoughts that then steered for the next season a little while. I think being proactive in regards to asking questions is really good, Ceejian. I appreciate that. I did the same thing. Maybe not as much as you. It sounds like you did, but 28 years later, I think it’s working out.

Speaker 3 Let me ask you guys, when you’re coming with a posture of, How’s it going? You are trying to learn, maybe potentially I’m not saying you do this, but maybe I have, trying to get a compliment. Am I doing a good job? Do you like me still? It seems like Greg wasn’t very like, Man, Hans, I’m so blessed by you. What would you say to a worship leader whose pastor doesn’t really compliment them or encourage them or tell them that they’re on the right track or tell them that they’re doing a good job? Because that can be discouraging when you’re working your butt off. I had someone in the academy this morning ask me, Hey, my leadership continues to remind me that I’m not their ideal person at this point, and they had their eye set on someone else. It’s hard for me to work enthusiastically when I know… Anyway, how do you handle that?

Speaker 1 First of all, I’m sorry for that. That is…

Speaker 2 That’s hard.

Speaker 1 That’s hard. How do we even go so far to say that’s just not cool?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 So for that person, whoever you are, may the Lord comfort you and strengthen you and give you all that you need to navigate through this season. First of all, we are servants, servants of the Lord, and servants of our pastor, and servants of our team. You do stuff for your wives, right? And you don’t do it necessarily because you want her to say, Hey, great job. You do it just because you want to serve your wife. So it’d be really easy for an attitude like that to turn into self-righteousness, which then, if that’s not recognised, then that turns to bitterness. So you don’t want that. But I think what you do is you serve. And when When you don’t get affirmation, go back and think about this. To me, the ultimate affirmation is the invite.

Speaker 2 That’s good.

Speaker 1 You’ve been given the opportunity. That is the ultimate affirmation. If they come to you and say, We don’t want you anymore, then you know that you weren’t pleasing them. Okay. And if that’s the case, then you don’t want to be there, because that means the Lord’s moving you to a new thing, where you’re going to be more fruitful. But yeah, the the fact that you’re even there doing it at all, whenever you get to that place, nobody’s recognising it. Man, I played that solo, and it was amazing. Nobody said anything. It’s like, Well, but you’re there again next week. So obviously, they think you’re doing a good job. If you’re not getting that, I think you find the stuff that you need from just recognising you’re given the opportunity, which is a really big deal, by the way.

Speaker 2 I tell people to go back to the word. It says, don’t do things to please man or get even the compliments of man, but do it unto the Lord. That’s That’s something that I would encourage any worship leader to pray over themselves, and remind themselves, get them back in alignment of, or don’t let me do things to get the compliments of man, or please man, I do everything unto you. The smallest thing, right? I’m doing it unto you, Lord. So make sure that you’re aligned with the word in knowing that, like Hans said, you got the invite, first of all. So there’s a reason that they have you there. Live off of that and then just do it unto the Lord. Because I’ve heard this, too. You got to be careful with compliments because they’ll drive your awareness of who you are versus who God is. And so the problem with that is the more compliments you get, the better you think you are. And that creates an entitlement or a prideful connotation that you come in with. Well, my pastor, he said it to me every time. Great. You got to be careful with compliments.

Speaker 2 And I’ve heard somebody say it, Man, you got to make sure when you get those compliments at the end of today, present those to the Lord as thank you for the gifts you’re giving. I think that’s the way to keep yourself in that framework. If you don’t get them, understand who you are.

Speaker 1 The Bible says that a man is tested according to praise that’s offered him. So do not measure yourself based on that stuff. That’s not a good plan.

Speaker 3 I’d love to ask, specifically are you actually working with your pastor, what cadence of communication do you guys have with your senior pastor?

Speaker 5 How are you collaborating with them on services?

Speaker 3 Or how do they tell you what they want, and then how do you tell them what you need? Do you have a weekly standing meeting Is it through email? How is that working relationship in practicality?

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Speaker 5 What cadence of communication do you guys have with your senior pastor?

Speaker 2 I said this earlier, we’re in a new season right now with new leadership with Pastor Mark Pettus, and me and him just met two days ago around Father’s Day, and That’s not a standing meeting where me and him are meeting once a week, but there is a collaborative meeting that we’re doing once a week that we’re able to come in with certain key components of the service, and we throw everything at the board. In that meeting, specifically with him, we talked around his message and what he’s doing. And then I was able to bring some thoughts to, Hey, here’s some songs that we already have ready. Here’s the set. What do you think? Oh, I think this. But he sent me a text on Monday, like Hey, what do you think about these two songs? He didn’t reference them to the service, but I knew, again, the awareness. I knew when he sent those songs, it was connected to the Father’s Day Sunday, just based on the titles of the song. And I said, hey, they’re great. So I went into my office and started working on a setlist that I could present him, referring to what he had sent me in that text.

Speaker 2 And again, the text just said, Hey, what do you think about these two songs? I didn’t say, what do you think about them for Father’s Day? The awareness took me there, and I went in and worked on. And then when we met, I said, hey, one of the songs you sent, I think it’d be great at this spot. He’s like, hey, I was thinking that same thing. How do we get to where we can reprise? And so we