The secret sin that nearly ruined Kristian Stanfill

  Speaker 2 Today, I am praying that God will set many worship leaders free from hidden addictions and secret sins that are destroying their lives, their families, their ministries. A friend of mine recently stepped down from his worship pastor role due to 20 years of daily addiction to pornography that nobody knew about. There are many worship leaders who are struggling with some secret sin. It might be substance abuse, sex addiction, pornography, gambling, and yet they have to get up on stage every single Sunday and play their role. They feel like they can’t let others know about this sin because it might cost them their job or they’re embarrassed of what others will think about them as a church leader who’s struggling with this. They feel stuck, they feel hopeless, they feel sapped of energy, numb, discouraged, isolated. They’re doubting their calling. They’re even doubting God’s love for them. I know, Christian, that you have walked through this struggle, and so have I. I wanted to set the tone by being transparent because there were times in my ministry as a teenager that I was being physical with my girlfriend in high school, and then I would literally drive straight to the church and get on stage and lead youth worship.

Speaker 2 Or early in my 20s, just recently married, I was still looking at pornography, and I was continuing to get on stage and lead from the platform, and nobody knew about it. My wife didn’t know about it. We will get into your secret addiction and how God set you free later in this conversation, Christian. But I just wanted to set the table a little bit and encourage worship leaders to know that they are not alone in this fight. You might feel ashamed, you might feel guilty, you might feel unworthy, but there is power available to you, like your first song on the album. There is help available to you through the power of the Holy spirit, through community, through vulnerability and transparency, and healing is possible. And so I just wanted to set the table there and say, you’re not alone, dear worship leader who’s struggling with addiction and secret sin. And so I’ll let you chime in right now, Christian, if there’s anything you want to add to that intro there.

Speaker 1 That all sounds great. That’s a beautiful prayer. It’s a bit dangerous. I know how dangerous that prayer, everything you just said, how dangerous that would have sounded to me five years ago. But now I hear you say that, and I pray that with you because there is so much joy and so much freedom on the other side of coming out into the light. So I agree with you, man. I think that’s beautiful. I love your heart to have this conversation.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it’s super needed, and I don’t think people talk about it, which is sad. We’re all in this fight together. Until we take our last breath, we are all in this fight. So take us into your story. So I think it was three or four years ago, you made an Instagram post saying, Today, I’m two years sober. So take us into the actual journey from you being caught in this sin and living in secret and still having to get up on stage. Was this something that slowly crept into your life? In your later years, it came to a head, or was it something that you carried with you from your youth? So just take us into the story.

Speaker 1 No, I didn’t have a drink until I turned 21, but I’m one of those people that doesn’t have… I don’t have the moderation button. It’s like I’m all in on everything. I mean, so it’s a good thing. It also can be a bad thing. For me, though, the addiction started to take hold when I was 30, and I stepped into a lot more responsibility here at our church. I’m not blaming that at all, but it was one of the trigger points for me as I stepped into a lot more responsibility, a lot more leadership, and I felt really ill-equipped. I felt very insecure. I I didn’t feel that I had all the answers. I was surrounded by a lot of really killer leaders, really dynamic leaders that thought strategically and were able to solve problems. I had been self-employed for almost a decade. I had my own band, and we would travel around and lead worship. I knew how to do that. I didn’t know how to be a worship pastor at a church. Instead of reaching out for help, I just internalised all of that pressure. Every day, I would go home, Alex, and feel like a failure.

Speaker 1 I didn’t do that right. I didn’t have that conversation right. A lot of people were leaving our team, and I was like, This is probably my fault. And I internalised all of that instead of talking about it. I didn’t talk to my wife, I didn’t talk to friends, I didn’t talk to pastors. And so to cope with all of those negative emotions, I started drinking. I started drinking more, and I started hiding it. And then after a few years of that, it really had a hold on me. And I did have these guys that are still in my life today that I would talk to and I would tell them, Hey, I need to dial it back on the drinking thing. I feel like this has become way too much of a crutch, and they would help me through that. I would quit for a while, but I would always come back to it. I just knew that it had this grip on my life. That was until about ’37. From ’30 to ’37. 2020 was such an exposing year for me personally. Everything shut down. I just found out real quick that I was hiding behind the schedule, the stuff that we were doing, the people we were doing it with.

Speaker 1 I found a lot of my identity in those things. And when that all went away, I was left alone at home with my family and all these demons in my closet. I look in the mirror and go, Dude, who are you? You got to deal with this stuff. And that really came to a head in November of 2020. And I had a really dramatic rock bottom moment with my wife, those two best friends that I talked about. And it was really scary, man. I remember that day so well. And this is weird to say this, but I feel like it’s a gift of God to me to remember that day so well, because I remember how bad I felt physically. I remember how terrible I felt emotionally and spiritually. I was never suicidal, but on that day, I’m like, I get it. I get why people, they get to a point, I just don’t want to do this anymore because it was like, I didn’t… This is not hyperbole. I literally didn’t know, how am I even going to make it through the day with all this pain and knowing I was going to have to get rid of this thing that I really loved, this drinking thing I knew it was going to have to go.

Speaker 1 So that was the 30 to 37. That’s in a nutshell where the addiction really took cold.

Speaker 2 Sin thrives in secret, right? And so you’re drinking. I mean, where are you drinking and how are Are you hiding that from your wife? And usually you smell, right? We’re talking about drinking, but I want to apply this to all sins for any worship leader. It could be, I look at pornography when my wife goes to the gym or whatever it is that you do, you have this third-party place or this third place, they call it. I know in affairs, they say if there’s a third place where you meet up with someone, that’s where the sin happens. How are you pastoring at a church? You have a team, you’re on tour, you’re writing songs. When are you drinking? How are you drinking?

Speaker 1 Well, I’ll I would say it was a very social thing. So everywhere we would go, dinner parties, hangouts with friends, even at home, you have a glass of wine with your wife or something. There was always the presence of alcohol around. So it was everyone’s drinking. And so it became easy to hide in broad daylight because everyone’s drinking. But I had my own little private stash going on, and I had places where I would hide it, and it was very deceptive And that was how that was happening. Or if we were at a party and there’s an open bar, it’s like, you get real clever, man. You get real clever, you get real deceptive, you find ways around all the things. I also say this, the people in my life, they’re not dumb. They knew something was up, and they knew I wasn’t telling the whole truth. And that’s probably true for you if you’re watching. People around you, they have a good idea that something’s not quite right.

Speaker 2 Especially our spouses, especially if it’s a wife. They have such intuition. Yikes. Yes, they do. Which is, praise God, they are our protectors, honestly, spiritually. It’s interesting how when you’re deceiving yourself, you’re not even aware that you’re deceiving yourself. Like you said, I was so deceptive during that time. I’ve had seasons where I knew I was doing something wrong, but it almost didn’t feel wrong. And or, like you said, we love it. In a weird, sick, twisted way, we love our sin. We cherish it. It brings us comfort, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2 It’s really about finding comfort in that rather than in God. I feel like that’s the root issue underneath all of our addictive behaviours.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that’s true. I couldn’t see that in the thick of it. It was like, you tell yourself lies, I’m okay, I’m in control. This isn’t a big deal. And I was also pretty functional, so I could still be around people, and it actually I felt like I needed it to be gregarious and outgoing. It was like, I need it. All the lies you tell yourself.

Speaker 2 How did you feel standing on stage? You’re in these huge arenas and leading Hundreds of thousands of people, lots of people look up to you. When you got up there, did you feel guilt or unworthiness in those moments, or were you able to somehow compartmentalise? What did that feel like for you?

Speaker 1 I think compartmentalization is It’s a big part of how the duplicitousness of life, that’s how it happens. You compartmentalise these things. And I will say there was this thing around church, conference, things that we were doing. I wasn’t treading all over that stuff with the addiction. There was a healthy respect with a lot of the stuff that we were doing. Hey, I want to be fully present doing this thing or leading here, doing that. So it wasn’t leading hungover. But But it was when I knew I had a runway where we weren’t going to be doing something or not leading or something. It was like, that’s when it got… It would get really tough. But then, yes, I mean, for sure, there are times you’re leading and you feel like, man, I’m just such a phoney. No one really knows what’s actually going on. And in those moments, you go… And it’s true, God’s mercy is for you. God’s grace is toward you for sure in those moments. But yes, His grace is for you, but he wants to move you on from where you are. And that was the part of it. I was like, Thank you for your grace today.

Speaker 1 And I feel like the next thing he would say is, Okay, well, now let me move you from where you are. Let my grace stir you and move you into something better. And that was where the conversation stopped.

Speaker 2 It seems like it reminds me of the story of the woman when they bring her before Jesus, and he’s like, Has no one condemned you? They all walk away. Has no one condemned you? My daughter. And then she’s like, No one, sir or Lord. And he’s Neither do I. Go and leave your life of sin. So like you just said, there’s this, yes, you’re forgiven, but go and leave your life of sin. Don’t keep going down that path.

Speaker 1 That’s the hard part.

Speaker 2 Let me ask you a question. I was going to ask this later, but I think it’s appropriate to ask now, is there a difference between struggling with sin and living in sin? And if so, how would you differentiate that? Because we’re all going to struggle and fight against sin until our last breath, unfortunately. But what’s the difference between that and what you were doing? And how would you help a worship leader delineate whether or not they’re fighting against sin or just accepting sin?

Speaker 1 A great question. That’s a great distinction to make Alex. I think the difference is, now I have to practise quick confession, taking stock daily of where am I, what thoughts am I having, what’s going on in my heart? Is there anything I need to confess to these guys in my life or my wife? I meet with these guys on… Well, it’s been weird recently, but usually it’s every Wednesday. We meet and we talk and we just say it all. I mean, it’s like nothing is off limits. It’s like we get like, odd Be specific about stuff, about everything. Everything matters. And then I have a conversation with this guy in Arkansas every Friday. We do the same thing. My wife has permission to check in anytime. And it’s the quick confession. It’s living a transparent life, being vulnerable with people. That, to me, is the struggle. That’s the overcoming life. I do feel the struggle, but I actually feel more like the word overcoming, if I’m living that way. The quick confession transparency. It’s like that’s the overcoming life. I feel like it goes the other way when you’re not being honest with yourself, you’re not being honest with the people around you, you’re trying to manage it on your own.

Speaker 1 There’s zero accountability in your life. People think one thing and something else is going on behind. I think that’s the difference of what you’re talking about. So yeah, that would be the distinction.

Speaker 2 It’s huge. That hopefully will help worship leaders take stock of where they’re at. Because I heard someone say once, accountability only works if you want it. Because like you said, we can have accountability partners checking in with us, but we don’t tell them everything. And it’s because somehow we’ve chosen our sin over living in freedom and purity and in the light because we think this is better until we realise that it’s rotten. But it does take that breaking moment where you realise this is going to kill me. This is killing me, and this is going to literally destroy my family, my ministry, my life, and everything else the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, right?

Speaker 1 Yes. I will say there’s a choice involved. I think sometimes people think all of a sudden you wake up and it’s like the desire is gone, or it’s easy for you to wake up every every day and choose sobriety or not choose to participate in certain things that will hurt you. There is a grace that intervenes on your behalf, I will say, when you take a step of obedience, when you do something that God is clearly asking you to do, there’s an apportioned grace for that step. You take that step and you engage his power in a way that you don’t engage it if you stay where you are. Does that make sense? For me, when I drew the line in the sand, I said, I can’t drink anymore. And it wasn’t like, I’ll come back to it in six months. I told these guys and my wife, Hey, in my life, this is it for me. When I drew that line, I’m not kidding you, Alex, it was the closest thing I’ve ever experienced to a miracle. And I might call it a miracle, actually. Because I felt a wind in my life. I felt a strength come on my life.

Speaker 1 I felt a supernatural energy come on my life that I had never felt before. And what seemed impossible the day before all of a sudden was possible. And I would not have engaged that if I hadn’t drawn that line. And so I just would encourage you, you draw that line and you will encounter the strength of the Almighty in a way that you have never encountered it before. All I can say is you just have to trust me and take that step because that’s how I’m still here. That’s how I’m still walking. That grace doesn’t run out. So there is a choice involved. Actually, that’s love. That’s the love of God saying, I’m going to give you a choice. I’m not going to make you. I’m going to give you a choice so that when you make that choice and you feel that love and you feel that grace towards you, you go, Oh, God, you’re so good. I don’t want to live for anything or anybody else. I want you. I want your way because it is so good. That’s the way he set it up because he’s a good father. A good father doesn’t make his kids love him.

Speaker 1 He woos them. He beckons them to himself, and he wraps them up and he says, I want you to know how much I love you and how good I am.

Speaker 2 So Man, that’s so good, Christian. Thank you so much. You’re getting some hearts over here. It’s funny. They’re flying over the screen. I didn’t know that that’s possible. I like that, guys. Keep them coming. Give them the hearts, guys. Give them the hearts. So when did the sin that you enjoyed turn disgusting for you? And what was that flip? And what was that rock bottom moment/flip that everything started to change?

Speaker 1 I don’t know if there was a moment where it flipped. I know that somewhere in the process of that first year, things started coming back online. My personality started coming back. Like alcohol jacks with your biology. It messes up your whole… There were things about my personality and things about who I am intrinsically that had died. They needed to be rejuvenated and resurrected. And that started happening in that first year. And I started to laugh freely. I started to enjoy just being where my feet are. I’m just here right now, and I’m good with that. I don’t need anything to distract me. I don’t need an Eject button. I don’t need a drink. I just need to be… I want to be here with my kids, with my wife, with my friends, the thing, the whatever. And I started to realise this lightness and ease started to come back. And I think a lot of it is spiritual, but I do think a lot of it is biological. And when that all started to flip, that’s when I started to say, This is the good life. This is the good life. This is the life that he wants for me.

Speaker 1 And then it became not just I’m running from something, but I’m running toward someone. It became less of like, I’m looking over my back all the time, going, Is it right there? Is today going to be a hard day? Am I going to drive by a liquor store and be tired and feel like whatever and want to go in there? I stopped doing that and I started just looking at Jesus and going, You’re so much better than all of it. I mean, it’s hard to articulate, man. It just doesn’t make At some point, you hit a point, you’re like, nothing compares to him. But then also, I will say this is hilarious, too. I think it’s funny when I talk about this because I feel like an old man. But I’m like, it takes a lot of effort. The life that I was living took a lot of effort. It takes a lot of effort to live that a deceptive life. I just don’t have the time or the energy for it, honestly. I don’t know if that makes sense. I just don’t I don’t feel like it. I don’t feel like going to the thing and hiding the deal and whatever.

Speaker 1 And then I have to call all these people and go, Hey, I slipped up or had relapsed or whatever. I don’t know how that sounds, but it just feels to me like one thing We talk about in the recovery world is play it out to the end. So let’s say I go have a drink today. We’ll play that out to the end. All right, well, I can’t just have one. I’m going to have 10. And then I have to tell my wife, I got to tell these guys in my life, I got to call my pastors. A lot of things, in some ways, start over. I’m like, I don’t want that. I think at some point it turned from running from something to like, I’m so thankful for the life I’m living now. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 It makes a tonne of sense. It’s exhausting to try to be constantly keeping secrets. Somebody said, If you tell a lie, you better have a good memory because you just have to tell more and more lies and you have to keep track of them all. Oh, gosh. There’s another verse that says, The righteous are as bold as a lion. I feel like that verse, what I think it means is, it means that when you are righteous, you’re not afraid looking over your shoulder like, Am I going to get caught? Or you’re just bold because you’re like, This is who I am. This is how I live. I live this way. You mentioned two times you said coping and the deject button. I think it’s really important. You and I both have gone through counselling in our late 30s. I think what I realised was a lot of my bad habits and behaviours were trying to escape stressful situations. You mentioned that in the beginning. It’s almost like the addiction or the sin is a coping mechanism for an underlying issue. Do you want to talk at all about what you learned about that relationship? Because it might help other worship leaders start to look deeper into what’s actually going on behind.

Speaker 2 And they might need counselling, too, but just share whatever you want.

Speaker 1 I guess for me, I had to start to understand that it was very performative for me. I was performing for love. My value that I was placing on myself was how well or how bad I did wherever. If I was in a conversation or if I was leading somewhere, if I was writing a song or if I was hanging out with my family, is like, if things went badly, I am bad. If things went well, I am good. And that was the thing. So in order to deal with the I am bad, I was drinking. And I’m simplifying it. There’s a lot there. When you go through this counselling and process, there’s a lot of excavating with nuclear family stuff and trauma in your life and all that thing. So you understand there’s a lot attached there, too. But now, though, Alex, what I do is if I have any of those kinds of feelings, I will literally be side stage. I’ve done this where I’m literally, I’m side stage about to walk out and lead at church or a conference or something, and all of a sudden, I have a thought. And whether it’s a fear a prideful thought or a prideful thought or, Oh, gosh, so and so is in the room, and I want them to think I do a good job.

Speaker 1 They even that thought. I will text my wife or I’ll text these guys right there before I walk out. I go, Hey, The enemy is knocking on the door right now going, Hey, I want you to think about this or let this thought. And as soon as I text that or I talk to somebody about it, it’s like it evaporates and the power of it is gone. So that’s actually the weapon that I use now. Instead of pushing it down, I just let it out. And just beat the devil at his own game and go, You know what? I do have that thought, and I’m just going to say it out loud to someone, and it’s going to seem really silly once I say it out loud, and then it goes away. But I used to internalise all of that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It’s interesting because it shows the importance of community and having people that you can text about stuff when you are struggling. My wife always says, I’d rather you text me when you’re tempted than after you’ve done the stupid thing. It’s like, that’s what we should do, is just tell somebody, Hey, I’m really struggling with this thing, or I’m tempted to do this thing, and I don’t want to. Yeah, it stops us. This is a question from one of our members Rylan Russell, and I think this is an important, really, really important question, because in that moment of the bottom of the pit, you had to decide, Okay, I’m not going to do this anymore, and I need to tell people. So obviously, you needed to tell your wife, and that might have happened over days, weeks, months. I know how these things unfold. You had to tell your friends. But who else should a worship leader tell that they’re struggling? And then how do you recommend they go about that? Especially, I remember listening to one of your interviews yesterday, and you had to tell your senior pastor, and that was the scariest one for you.

Speaker 2 So talk about getting the sin out into the light. Who do you tell? How do you tell them? And what about your senior pastor who has the power to fire How did you process all that and any advice you have?

Speaker 1 Well, I started with my wife and got it all out on the table with her. Then these two guys came over, and these are guys that I’ve known for a long time.

Speaker 2 Can I ask you how your wife responded? Maybe that’s an inappropriate question, but was it so tough? No.

Speaker 1 It had been tough for a while. I think she was relieved that I was finally telling the truth. She’s not a dummy. I honestly believe she prayed me out of the addiction. Her prayers, she just knew, You’re not okay, and things are not good. Then when I finally came to her, it was a little bit like, I’m aware, and also, I’m so happy you’re telling me this, but I’m not minimising the consequence of those years. I mean, it’s taken us five years to really… We’re, gosh, better than we’ve ever been now. But it took a while for us to really unpack all that. So I’m not minimising that. But she responded with so much grace and so much forgiveness and so much like, We have a lot to work through, but I’m with you.

Speaker 2 I tell people who- Pretty amazing. Yeah. I tell people who are going through this moment because I think most of us in our Christian life come to this moment and have to deal with it. And my wife and I had an issue seven years into our marriage. So it was like 11 years ago now. And I describe it as a slow motion explosion. It’s all blowing up, but you still have to get through each day and you’re just walking through this, and you just deal with it. I tell people, and so if any worship leaders are ready to be set free, just prepare for a slow-motion explosion where it’s going to be weeks of conversations with your spouse or weeks of picking up the pieces, or trying to figure out what to do.

Speaker 1 But just to keep going on that, though, because I think it is important. These other two guys are guys that I trusted completely, and I trusted them to help me sort through it, get help, walk with me through it, the brothers at my side. And then I did. I had to call Louis, and I had to tell him and a few other pastors at our church because I wanted him to know. And that was really hard for me. Not because Louis… It wasn’t because I wasn’t afraid of him, but it was the thing was afraid of most in my life is saying, I didn’t perform well. I’m not doing good. And I felt a lot of shame for that. I am bad because I’m doing bad. When I called him and told him I I was like, I was so nervous, but I knew I was taking it very seriously. I’m like, I want to get everyone involved. And his response was just, oh, my gosh. I mean, it was so beautiful. And just so full of grace, and he was so supportive. He was broken-hearted for me and for Kari, but he was like, I’m with you, and I love you, and we’re going to get through this.

Speaker 1 And then, Shelle His wife showed up the next day with flowers for Kari just to say, Hey, I know this is really hard, but we are here and we are with you. Let that be an example of how to show up for someone who’s already in the pit of hell. They don’t need you to throw down more shame. I didn’t need Louis and Shelle to go, How could you and why would you? And you’re a piece of trash and blah, blah, blah. I was already feeling that. Hell does a great job of telling you that when you’re in a bad spot. But they just extended the heart of the Father and just wrapped us up and walked with us through the whole thing, man. I stepped down in that season as a worship pastor at our church and handed that off to a guy named Jeff Johnson, He was doing an incredible job. I was around church and leading some, but I pretty much went dark for two years. And the way I say it, I just went on a walk with God for a couple of years. I mean, almost like, literally. I just would walk and talk with him.

Speaker 1 And I wrote these little songs. Just as I was going through the recovery process, I was writing songs thinking I’d never share these songs with anybody. But then I started talking to people and realising that everyone just feels alone. Everyone feels like I’m the only one dealing with this. I can’t talk to anybody. And I got to a point, man, I wouldn’t recommend this for everyone. This was a very prayerful talk to a lot of people. God advice and sought wisdom. And I just felt like, I want to tell people that this is what I have struggled with, not so that I can make it my identity or get more attention, but because I just want to shatter the lie that you are alone in whatever you’re struggling struggling with. I just felt like, hell is taking too much ground in people’s lives, making them think they’re the only one struggling with X, Y, or Z. So I was like, Man, forget that. I want to come out with this and say, This is what my struggle is, how I’ve been struggling. God has set me free. Jesus has set me free, and you can be free, too.

Speaker 1 And so we put out, Make It Out Alive, the record, Make It Out Alive, three years ago, and it was like, Very intimate, very personal, very let’s go have coffee and just get real with each other, a thing. And it was so healing to put that out, but also I think it just gave people language to talk about this stuff. And now, here we are two years later, and we just released Come to Jesus, which is if you put these records side by side, it’s two completely different. Sonically, it’s two completely different things. But I think what that represents is the power of God to move someone from the bottom of a pit to this vibrant, wide open space of freedom. And that’s what these new songs are about. It’s like, Hey, I’ve been set free and I’m alive and I’m full of joy. I feel authority on my life coming down from God. He’s touched my life and set me free from so much. And I just want people to know about it. And I feel like you should be able to hear that in the music. You We should be able to hear that in the songs.

Speaker 1 And so that’s what this new season of life represents. And I love talking about it here. I really do. But it’s not what I walk around talking about all the time. Because I’m like, I got a new story to tell, man. That will always be part of the story, and it’s good to remember. But, man, I