The Importance of Humility in Worship Leading with Hanz Ives Greg Laurie’s Worship Leader

Alex | (00:00)

Welcome to the worship Ministry training podcast, a monthly podcast for worship leaders who are serious about growing in their craft and calling. My name is Alex, fellow worship leader. Super stoked you’re here. If you’re a new listener, I’m going to encourage you to hit that subscribe button because every single month I’m going to give you helpful, practical guidance that you can immediately implement into your ministry. Hit that subscribe button and then go back through the past nine years of episodes and binge listen your way to a healthier ministry. If you’re someone who is really serious about growing as a worship leader, I’m going to point you to the worship Ministry Training Academy. What is the Academy? It’s an online training platform that will.

Alex | (00:36)

Give you.

Alex | (00:36)

Everything you need to build a thriving worship Ministry. You’ll get 10 in-depth courses on topics like set building.

Alex | (00:42)

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Technique, and more. You’ll get live monthly training workshops on topics that are relevant to you. You’ll get exclusive expert interviews with some of the best worship leaders in the world. You’ll get done for you ministry admin systems and audition process, onboarding documents, team training materials, and even team.

Alex | (01:02)

Discipleship materials. We will take care of you so.

Alex | (01:05)

You can focus on leading your team. If that sounds like something that would be of help to you, you can try the worship Ministry training academy for just one dollar by going to worshipministry training. Com. Sign up today for your one dollar trial and I hope to see you inside of the academy. Let’s get into today’s episode.

Alex | (01:25)

Hello, beautiful worship ministry training family. For those of you who are watching live, it’s good to spend some time with you. If you’re watching on YouTube, you can use the comments to chat with us while we have this interview. But today I am super, super pumped to finally have my friend on the show after six years of talking about it. And this is the wonderful, the handsome, the super wise Mr. Hans Ives. And Hans, I’m going to bring you on screen right now. Hello, how are you?

Hanz Ives | (01:52)

Hey, how are you Alex? Goodness sakes. Good looking and wise? I don’t know, man. I’m not sure that that’s the package, but there you go.

Alex | (02:00)

Okay, so for all of the podcast listeners, I know it’s audio only, but I’m going to encourage you to go over to our YouTube channel, which is YouTube. Com worship ministry training. You can see his beautiful bleached hair, his thick, nice beard, and those piercing blue eyes. I asked him if he’s Norwegian, and he’s got the awesome name Hans Ives.

Hanz Ives | (02:21)

By the way, the hair is not bleached unless it’s by age.

Alex | (02:26)

But white hair means wisdom, usually.

Hanz Ives | (02:28)

Well, let’s hope. Let’s hope. Well, I guess it remains to be seen. We’ll see.

Alex | (02:32)

Let me just introduce Hans for all of us. Hans and I connected about six years ago. I had just moved back down to LA. I took over as the worship pastor of a church that at the time was about 10,000 people. I was coming from a church of about 350 people. I had no idea what I was doing. I was completely over my head. I was like, What other huge Calvary Chapels are there? At the time, Harvest was associated with Calvary Chapel. I looked up Harvest, which is Greg Laurie’s church, a very large church, very huge kingdom impact, very huge global impact. And I somehow got in touch with Hans and I was like, I have no idea what I’m doing. Can I come meet with you, have coffee with you, and pick your brain? And he so graciously said, yes. I drove out there, I sat there with a notebook and I asked him every question, every burning question I had. And I was so encouraged by him and so blessed by his wisdom and his experience and just how he had faithfully shepherded his flock for now coming up on 26 years. Is that right, Hans?

Hanz Ives | (03:34)

Yeah, it’s correct. Amazing.

Alex | (03:36)

I love having guys like Hans on the podcast because pretty much anything you say is beneficial to all the rest of us. Hans has stood on the stage in stadiums in front of tens of thousands of people because Greg Laurie has the Harvest Fest. So you’ve seen what every musician or worship leader has ever really dreamed of. You’ve seen that impact and success and whatever level of metric you want to measure. But you’ve tasted some of the things that young musicians only ever dream about, like standing on a stage, all the lights, the huge PA, thousands and thousands and thousands of people in a big ring around you. And I asked you, Hans, what do you want to talk about today? And what really came to your heart was humility. You’re like, I want to talk about leading with humility and how we lead our teams and our churches from just a humble posture. I love that. So why humility? Why was that the thing that came to your mind when I asked you?

Hanz Ives | (04:38)

I think because leadership requires an ability to be other oriented and to think about other people first. The ultimate example of that is Jesus. It says in Philippians 2 that he didn’t think it robbery to be God, but yet he humbled himself and became a man, took on the form of man, and lived that perfect life and then sacrificed and died the death on the cross. Because he did that, he now has the name above every other name through the glory of God the Father. So if that’s the example of Christ’s example of leadership over the church was to be humble and to submit to authority, which is a really important thing in church context, as well as just Christian context, that I should do the same thing. There’s a really powerful scripture that I think about quite often, especially when I see people that are not operating in it. It says in the scriptures in several places. So anytime you see a scripture that’s in more than one place, it’s like, Pay attention. It says that God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. The last thing that I want is to be in opposition to the creator of the universe.

Hanz Ives | (05:57)

As opposed to being opposition to him, I want to receive grace. That’s the posture is humility is a great place to lead from.

Alex | (06:05)

To you, if you’re assessing a person, maybe someone wants to be in your ministry, what does it look like to be a humble worship leader? What attitudes actions are you looking for that tell you that indicate this is a humble human?

Hanz Ives | (06:20)

I think being other oriented is probably the first character trait that I would look for in somebody as a worship leader is being other oriented. Because ultimately, if we’re fulfilling our role and our calling as worship leaders, what we are doing is facilitating somebody else’s experience with the Lord. We’re bringing the gifts and abilities that God has given to us graciously, and we’re using them in service to the Lord and to his people. I look for people that are other oriented. That’s exhibited in a bunch of different ways. It’s exhibited in how you handle when things don’t go exactly like you want them to. It’s exhibited in how you pick songs. It’s exhibited in how you choose people to lead alongside you. It’s pretty obvious when somebody is other oriented, and it’s pretty obvious when they’re not.

Alex | (07:15)

Yeah, that’s really encouraging. I think for all of us, we can just immediately start to ask ourselves, What’s something I can do this week to let someone else step forward and I can step back? So it might be for the worship leader listening, it might be like letting someone else sing the song that you love to lead, but you want to give them a chance.

Hanz Ives | (07:36)

Well, because ultimately, I think in the end, and I think I’ve noticed this is a theme, I think, in many of your interviews with people because it’s an important theme in leadership period. Jesus is not going to ask us, how did that 6 8 groove go on that one song? He’s just not going to ask us that. He’s going to say, What did you do with my people? And not only that, not only your team, which is important, because I feel like in worship leadership, you got to make sure you’re taking care of your team before you can ever take care of the congregation as a whole. But he’s not going to say, Man, you guys killed it when you did that rearrangement of that one song. It was so good. I mean, he may say that, but I think more importantly, he’s going to say, That young lady that came on your team and at first people didn’t think she really had it, and you saw something in her, and now look at where she… Look at what she did and how she blossomed and how she served me and glorified me. Well done. I think those are the things that we need to look for.

Hanz Ives | (08:41)

This is a funny thing about humility. In the Bible, it says, Moses was the most humble man on the face of the earth. Okay, two funny things about that. First of all, he’s the guy who wrote that, which I think is funny, but it wouldn’t be in the Bible if it wasn’t true. But if you think of the the massive responsibility that Moses had, leading literally millions of people, that quality of being the most humble man on the face of the earth, how many times do you think that came into play? First, certainly it came into play when people were calling into question, saying, Who do you think you are? You’re not the only one that can represent us before God. And then other times when God was like, You know what? I am so done with these people. And Moses humbly pleaded and interceded on their behalf. That attitude of humility in Moses, and of course, in Jesus, is certainly one that if we aspire to that, and that’s what it is. It’s an aspirational thing because none of us hit it at 100 %. But if that’s what we aspire to, I think we’ll do well.

Alex | (09:48)

It’s almost like the more humble you are, the more God can entrust you with, right? Yeah. Because you’re not going to take credit. You’re not going to get a big head. He’s like, Okay, Hans, he has truly shown himself to be a humble person. Therefore, I’m going to give him a bigger platform to bless more people because he’s not going to use the platform for himself or for his gain or for selfish ambition, but for the good of others.

Hanz Ives | (10:12)

Right. And in fact, that whole passage from Philippians 2, if you don’t mind, can I read that for a second? Go ahead. Is there any encouragement from belonging Christ, any comfort from his love, any fellowship together in their spirit? Are your hearts tender and compassionate? Then check this out. This is Paul writing to the Philippians, Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Unity. And unity rarely happens when the worship leader or the person in charge is all about them. Rarely. Then he says, Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. Man, come on. That’s pretty good. That should be on every worship leader’s like, as you open up your computer, you’ve got it taped to the screen. It’s like you have to pull it off your screen in order to start working.

Alex | (11:17)

Yeah. Actually, bringing up the computer, we live in a very me, me, me society with the Internet, and it’s all about self promotion. Social media is like, check out my new thing. Even me with worship ministry training, I’m like, I have to post stuff so that people, one, are encouraged. I mean, I want to encourage people with it, right? But it can also be used to be like, Oh, look cool. I’m talking to Hans, or I’m talking to so and so famous. That could be something that any worship leader can do on their social media where it’s like, look at this big fancy stage, look at these cool lights, look at my self promotion, look at my new song. There’s this difficult balance of self promotion versus just wanting to put things out there that are helpful for others? How can we work on humility in a social media society? Do you have any input on that or thoughts?

Hanz Ives | (12:12)

That’s a great question. I think it’s not horrible to post things on social media and things that you’ve done and to be excited and to be blessed by what God is doing in your life and things opportunities are given you. That’s not bad. That’s not a bad thing. I think we all know where the line is and the Holy Spirit is very quick to remind us. I’m looking at one of the comments and Nathan Burkey says, Anytime I start to lose humility, God is quick to remedy this situation. He certainly is. I think that it’s not a bad thing to promote things that you’re involved in. It’s not even necessarily a bad thing to self promote. But if in your heart you know that it’s like, I’m making this more about me than I should, then just back off. You can go on Instagram and some of that stuff from people, it becomes noise and you just pass it over. And then people that are just sharing cool things that God is doing in their life and in their ministry, you want to read that stuff and get blessed by it. I think we just have to constantly be asking the Lord, Hey, is this about me or is this about you?

Alex | (13:29)

That’s huge. I feel like part of the word humility reminds me of invisibility, just like for some reason they seem to go hand in hand. A truly humble person doesn’t need to be seen. T hey’re okay being in the back on the base in the dark or whatever. I think you’re right. It’s more of a heart issue where if you’re doing something to be seen and applauded and get accolades from others, it’s probably the wrong motivation. If you’re doing something to bless others, to help others, to serve others, or just to point them to God, then a safe platform. But it really comes down to that heart.

Hanz Ives | (14:08)

Well, we have to rememberthat anybody that’s on a platform, you’re up in front of people. So that’s instantly an opportunity for all the pitfalls. It’s instantly an opportunity. I’d be lying if I said, Oh, I never have those moments where I think, Man, that was cool. What I just did. Because I do. I do have those moments. And then there are times when I’m like, This is really amazing what’s happening right now? And like, as opposed to, Man, God, you’re doing amazing things. Of course, I fall into those pitfalls. We have to really be careful because we’re up in front of people. And what’s interesting, Moses was the most humble man on the face of the earth. God chose him to lead millions of people. I mean leadership, that means you’re going to go out in front and say, Follow me. Okay, so there is an element of like, Hey, I’m over here. Check me out. Let’s go. Here’s where we’re going. So there is an element of leadership that is forward. Then the balance comes of being forward, being like taking the chart, taking the hill, taking the lead, and doing that other oriented.

Hanz Ives | (15:21)

It’s a Holy Spirit thing. It is for sure it is. It’s a gift of the Spirit thing.

Alex | (15:26)

It’s a follow me as I follow Christ. It’s like you’re just a pass through to Christ. Romano said, Before I became a worship leader, I swept floors and cleaned toilets. Now that I’m a worship leader, I still sweep floors and clean toilets. I love that. With that, do you have any habits that have helped you stay humble? Or maybe just some things you say to yourself as you get on stage in front of thousands of people or just in the small, quiet moments of your heart? What are some practices that have helped you to stay on the humble side?

Hanz Ives | (16:01)

Well, I think here’s one of the first ones. Quite often, people will come up to us at church, and I’m sure that everybody that is a leader has experienced this, where somebody will come up to you and say, Man, thank you so much for what you did today, and just thank you for your years of faithfulness, and thank you for singing that song, or whatever the thing may be, they’ll come and say, Thank you. And at that moment, I have two choices. Well, first, let me just say this, don’t be weird and say, It’s all the Lord, because they know that. So don’t be weird, say, Thank you. You could even say praise the Lord. But when you say praise the Lord, don’t do it in the Christian, this is vernacular that we say all the time, literally in your heart say, Yeah, God praise you. You deserve the glory for that. So that’s a good practice. That’s literally like a mechanism that you can use to remind yourself, This is God working in me and through me. And He doesn’t have to. He just is gracious.

Alex | (17:10)

So.

Hanz Ives | (17:11)

I think that’s the first thing. I think another thing is to try as best as possible. Somebody once asked me, Hey, so what do you do different to get ready for Sundays? Do you change your thing up so you can get ready to be in front of people? I said, No, I don’t. Hopefully, I’m the same person on Tuesday that I am on Sunday morning.

Hanz Ives | (17:33)

So whatever that means to you, some people get up and do their devotions and pray and read their Bible in the morning, and other people do it at noon, and some people do it at 10 o’clock at night. That’s fine. Whatever. Just as long as you’re taking care of yourself, continuing to feed yourself and prepare yourself and make yourself available. I ask God every day, Okay, help me to be the best version of me that I can be today, the one that you want me to be, and fill me with your Spirit, cleanse me and fill me with your Spirit. Basically, it’s Christian 101.

Alex | (18:13)

One of the things, too, that helps me is to remind myself that, one, I’m not holding my molecules together. Two, I’m not providing the breath in my lungs. Three, I have zero gifts that are not given by God, which is why they’re called gifts. So every single gift I have, my intellect, my experience, my history, my talent are all given by God. And it’s to serve Him and to glorify Him, not to be like, look how good I did at designing myself. I didn’t design myself. So I think that’s great. I think that really helps us stay humble as well.

Hanz Ives | (18:47)

I love that, Alex. That’s really good. It says in the scriptures that he, through the word of his power, is holding all things together. And it’s like you said, I’m not making my lungs work.

Alex | (19:00)

The.

Hanz Ives | (19:01)

Fact that you and I are talking right now, I’m not responsible for the fact that I know language.

Alex | (19:09)

Obviously, we struggle with pride and try to fight for humility in ourselves, but what about in our team members? What have you found to be a helpful way to deal with a prideful team member? I’ll couch the conversation with this. In the academy, I’ve been talking to some of the people in the academy to find out, why did you sign up? Almost everybody, not everyone, but a lot, said, I was having a difficult time with a person. The people problems of ministry caused people to look for help. Yes, people also need help with tech. Yes, they need help getting organized. But it seems like leading people is one of the most heavy and difficult parts of ministry. So how do you deal with prideful people on the team? Hopefully, you didn’t even let them on the team in the first place. But let’s say you’re counseling a worship leader who did let someone on their team and they’re having issues. How would you counsel them?

Hanz Ives | (20:05)

Well, first of all, I would say this, that I don’t think there’s a single person on any worship team that can ever say they’re not prideful. Prideful is like an overarching thing, well, that’s different. But I remember the very first worship conference I went to, that’s really the stuff that I wanted to know because I know how to play a D chord. I know how to learn songs. Leadership is a whole another thing. I think one of the things that I do is I try to think about people, first of all, they’re important to the Lord. I think about how gracious he is with me, how there have been things in my life that he could have easily just smoked me for. You’re done. That’s it. You’re out. But no, he’s compassionate and he’s super long suffering and he works with me. So why shouldn’t I work with other people? So I remember that. I remember that about myself. And then when it comes to other people, first of all, you got to find out, maybe they got stuff going on in their life, like hard things that they’re not talking about. And I’m not talking about sins or anything.

Hanz Ives | (21:19)

I’m talking about maybe they’ve got a brother or sister or something that’s walked away from the Lord, or they’ve got hard things going on at their job, and people that are abusive to them. Try and think about who they are. And then when somebody acts inappropriately, I rarely call them out in the moment. I may try and deflect, try to get to the next thing. And then privately, I’ll say, Hey, you know that thing that you did today? That wasn’t cool. And what made you do that? And then have that discussion with them. It’s just speaking the truth and love.

Alex | (22:01)

And.

Hanz Ives | (22:02)

I’m not going to blow the scriptural barrels on them. I’m going to try and love them through the process. Now, that doesn’t mean that I haven’t had people that I’ve done that with once, twice, three times, four times, or whatever, and then finally had to say, This is not the place for you. First of all, we have to be willing to weigh it into the thing. We have to be adult enough to know if I shirk this responsibility, then it’s just going to come back on me later.

Alex | (22:31)

And if you.

Hanz Ives | (22:33)

Love that person enough, then that means you’re going to confront them with the intent and aim. Not that you’re some super Einstein spiritual person, but you’re going to love them through the process to get them to the next phase of their walk with the Lord.

Alex | (22:50)

Yeah, that is such good pastoral advice. I actually, yesterday, had a conversation with the young female on the team, and I’m going to share a little bit just because I think for the listeners and the academy members watching live, it’ll be helpful to hear that approach because what you said, Hans, is so key, which is we must remember the way God sees the person and we must approach them with that same heart for restoration. This young gal, I found out she’s under age and she was drinking on New Year’s. I found this out recently and not going to give any more details because I don’t want to give anything away to anyone who might know her. I sat down, I said, Hey, I want to talk with you about something. First of all, I want you to know I’m not mad, I’m not upset, you’re not in trouble. But this is like a big brotherly conversation because I really care about you and I want you to succeed because you feel called to ministry. This is what I heard. Can you help me fill in the details? Is there anything I don’t know? Where are you at with that right now?

Alex | (23:54)

Then here’s what the Scripture say, Do not be drunk with wine, which leads to debauchery, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. The word Consecration, if you want to be a worship leader, Consecrating yourself means being set apart, different than your family members who do all that and think it’s fine. Just a little bit of pastoral counsel scripture and then like, Hey, great. What do you think? You ready to do better? Great. Let’s do better. And that’s it. You’re for the person. I think people are afraid of those hard conversations because they feel like it’s coming against the person. It’s the opposite, 100 % opposite. You’re actually coming alongside of them as a helper, as a guide, as an encouraging, as a coach, as a shepherd to, like you said, move them forward in their life. When you flip that script in your mind of like, this is not a bad thing that I’m about to do, this is a great thing, it becomes so much easier to have those hard conversations. Yeah.

Hanz Ives | (24:48)

And you and I were talking before we started the podcast, and I was reminded that I think you may have asked me this question when you and I met six years ago, but you were like, Hey, well, is there any mistake that you may have made that you can share with me? Any lessons in regards to that that you can share with me? I’m pretty sure I said this, and that is anytime you shirk those responsibilities, you’re going to have to have the conversation at some point. When you have to have it later, it’s going to be even worse. I think that’s like two plus two equals four, and that is an axiom as well. If you shirk the responsibility because it feels uncomfortable and it’s like, oh, nobody wants conflict. This is church. There’s conflict is not allowed. It’s like, yeah, that’s not the way it works. I think about the scriptures as like, Paul had to go to Peter and confront Peter in front of a bunch of people. Why are you doing what you’re doing? This is not cool. And that is Ministry.

Alex | (25:52)

Christina, who’s watching live, typed a comment, I always have a hard time confronting people. This advice really helps. Thank you, Hans. I love that idea of if you don’t have the conversation now, it’s going to be a lot harder later. I completely agree. I liken it to cancer. I say it’s better to catch and cut the cancer out while it’s small because it’s a quick incision and it’s a lot easier to heal. But when it grows into this massive tumor and starts to take over your organs, you’re going to lose parts of your body, man. So cut it out while it’s small. So I love that advice.

Hanz Ives | (26:24)

Well, and also I think that the word confront has a lot of baggage. But if you think about that you’re doing life with people and you’re wanting them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ along with you, then it makes the conversation a little less militant. It’s still going to be confrontive in the sense of you’re going to actually ask somebody about something they did, or said, or think. But as long as you keep that heart of like, man, my main aim… And by the way, it doesn’t always work out perfectly. Sometimes people get really bummed at you and they leave.

Alex | (27:09)

Right.

Hanz Ives | (27:11)

But God’s on the throne and he used you as a part of the process of either holding that person to accountability. And maybe years later, or even weeks later, they have a change of heart.

Alex | (27:22)

Yeah, that’s so good. Hans, I’d love to move into our Academy Q&A in just a minute, but two things. One, what is something you’re working on right now, whether it’s a personal thing, a musical thing that you want to share with the audience? There’s lots of people listening from all over that would love to keep up with you online and maybe find some music that you’re working on or whatever. Is there anything that you’d like to promote?

Hanz Ives | (27:48)

Well, here’s two things. I’m an artist, so I’ve written songs through the years, and not that many people know them, but I have. And I’ve released a couple of records. And one was a record that I released in the late ’90s, ’99. And when streaming services and stuff came into play, the CD had long since been out of print. And I was like, I don’t think I’m going to ever re release that. I’m not going to do anything with that. Whoa, what just happened? Okay. Yeah, I’m not going to do anything with that. Well, then a couple of months ago, and I’ve had the Masters, the track Masters sitting by my desk for years. And then I saw him the other day and I thought, You know what I think I’m going to do? I didn’t even realize at the time that it was next year will be the 25th anniversary of releasing that record. So anyway, I’m in the process of remixing and I’m going to remaster a record that I released almost 25 years ago, and maybe I’ll release it by the end of this year. So there’s that. And if you follow me on Instagram, then you’ll get more information about that.

Hanz Ives | (28:54)

I posted about it a couple of days ago. You should get.

Alex | (28:57)

Phil Wickham to sing on it since he works with you.

Hanz Ives | (29:00)

Yeah, well, maybe. But the other thing is that my church is in the middle… We’re on the precipice. And this is something I’ve been praying about for easily 10 years, maybe more. But we have been writing and recording, and I think we’re about to release our first single, which not only is it going to get released, but I think it’s going to get released with partners in the worship world that can help it get out there. I feel really strongly in the songs that are being birthed from our church right now. We have a really, really talented team. So keep your eyes peeled for Harvest Worship, releasing soon.

Alex | (29:48)

Hans, I’d love for you to give a final word to the general listeners who are listening after the fact. General closing remarks, whether it’s regarding humility or something that’s really on your heart heavy to share with the worship community around the world that big brotherly pastoral wisdom that you want to share. Closing thoughts.

Hanz Ives | (30:06)

All right. Well, it’s a high calling to lead people in an experience where they engage with the creator. That’s a high calling. Most of us aren’t really up for it, if we’re honest. But Jesus says, apart from me, you can do nothing. But then he says in the scripture, say in the New Testament, you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. So as you abide in the vine, then that apart from me, you can do nothing, doesn’t apply to you because you’re not apart from Christ. And you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you, which includes using your gifts and ability, stepping into that as strong and as mightily as you possibly can, with an other oriented approach, giving God the glory and leading people into those great experiences where they express themselves to God and say thank you, express truths, not only to God, but then to each other in the room. And then God, in his grace and mercy, ministers back to us, strengthens us and encourages us. It’s a high calling. And the enemy may tell you that the church doesn’t need you. That’s a lie. God put you in the place you’re in because he wants you there.

Hanz Ives | (31:38)

So own it to his glory.

Alex | (31:41)

Amen. Yeah. Thank you, Hans. I had that thought a couple of weeks ago. There is no higher calling than helping a human being worship their creator. Nothing higher than that. So thank you. Great, great word. And we’re going to jump now into our Academy Q&A. And so for anyone who’s listening after the fact, I’ll see you guys in the next episode, or come join us inside the academy. You can try it for just one dollar. Would love to meet you guys in person. I’m always there interacting with everybody. Let’s jump into our Q&A. And for the rest of you, I’ll see you guys next week. Academy members, hold tight. Thanks for.

Alex | (32:14)

Tuning in today.

Alex | (32:15)

I hope this episode.

Alex | (32:16)

Encouraged you, helped you, and pushed you forward in your ministry. If it helped you, can you take a second and help us by sending it to just one person that you think needs to hear this? And if you’re feeling extra nice, leave us a nice, shiny five star review on Apple podcast or like this video if you’re watching it on YouTube. If you want to discuss this episode or ask questions, we do have a free section in our academy where you can post comments and questions and chat with other worship leaders just like you, and also sample some of our courses. And you can go to worship ministry training. Com free to join us inside the free portion of the academy. If you’re looking for more, check out the full access academy. You can get 15 days for just one dollar to start and try things out. Again, you can try all of it for 15 days for just one dollar by going to worshipministry training. Com. Hope to see you inside the academy, or else I’ll see you next month for another helpful episode.