Raising up Volunteer Leaders who GLADLY do your job for you!

Speaker 1 Imagine having a volunteer on your team who schedules the band each and every month so that you don’t have to. You don’t have to even think about it. Imagine another volunteer that you have who gets all the files ready for a planning centre, uploads them, sends notes to the band, and then another volunteer who builds your track software, your set for the week. And then imagine a team of volunteers whose job it is to check up on different team members on your team, disciple them, encourage them, see how they’re doing spiritually. Imagine another volunteer leader in charge of all your vocalists and who is running them through workouts and warmups and taking them backstage to make sure they sound good. And imagine that none of them are paid, and yet they gladly and faithfully do it as a volunteer. Now, our guest today will show us that not only is this possible, but this is preferred. This is exactly what God commands us to do as leaders. And so I’m excited to bring our guest, Mike, on the screen to show us how he’s built a completely volunteer leadership team at his church and help us do the same.

Speaker 1 And so everybody, please welcome Mike. Say hello, Mike.

Speaker 2 Hey, guys. How’s it going?

Speaker 1 So, Mike, I wanted to do this conversation with you because there is nobody that I know that’s better than you at raising up leaders on your team to actually do real work for you consistently. And I remember we did a little teaching together in the academy recently, and one of the people on the call were like, well, what am I supposed to do all day? And don’t worry, guys, we’ll get into that because you will still stay busy, even if you delegate a lot of your leadership to others. Mike, I want you to tell us some of the positions that you’ve raised up at your church, like full on, I have volunteer positions, but major leadership. So, yeah, let us know.

Speaker 2 I looked at it in four categories. And so the volunteer leadership team. I have the worship leader roles, I have band and vocal, I have production leadership roles, and then Culture Leadership Roles. The first thing is my music director, MD, is a volunteer role. I also have a vocal director overseeing all of the vocal leaders. I’ve production director, overseeing the audio, the lighting, and the cameras, and then also communications and events person. This was something that I’m not good at, and so I looked for a weakness and found someone who had a strength, and And they do that. And then also onboarding and also training director as well.

Speaker 1 Guys, all of those positions he just listed are volunteers. So if your mind is going, How did you do that, Mike? I need volunteers like that who will help. Mike is going to teach us how to do that. I will also say this has been a journey. He is on his sixth or seventh rotation of leaders, and I’m sure each time he’s gotten better at developing and equipping and recruiting the right people and setting them up for success. So we’ll dig into that as well today. But I just want you guys to start to think bigger about your job as the worship leader. It’s not to do everything yourself. It’s to equip others and recruit others and invite others into the system that you’re building so that they can find their place in that system and do the work for you and with you. So let me just recap those positions that are all volunteers. You have music director volunteer, you have tech director volunteer, you have vocal director volunteer, you have onboarding volunteer, you have pastoral care volunteers. I think you call them the circle or something like that, and then you have an event coordinator director volunteer.

Speaker 1 Okay, guys. So, wow, that’s crazy, Mike. And we’ll give you guys some first steps that you can take later on in this conversation, because it can feel overwhelming when you’re like, oh, my gosh, how can I get to the place Mike is? Well, we’ll give you some basic first steps here in a bit. And I should also say this before I ask you this question. Underneath all of those directors that are volunteers, Mike has other leaders underneath them that do specific things, and they’re also volunteers. So it’s like a whole volunteer pyramid. It’s like a Ponzi scheme, Mike. No, I’m just kidding.

Speaker 2 It is. I do. And it’s important to understand that because you’re like, Man, how does an MD handle so much? Because he has other MDs underneath him. We call them band leaders, essentially. How does the vocal director do it? Well, she has four or five different vocal leaders underneath her. How does this onboarding and training Well, she has a team that she has as well, the three or four people that are coaches and things like that. So that’s how this is all sustained.

Speaker 1 And Mike, people are probably wondering, Well, what do you do all day, Mike? There’s this thought that I have is as you have delegated authority and responsibility to all these people, you’re not probably aware of all the micro details anymore. And I was thinking about this phrase. I think I’ve heard Craig Grishel say it. Maybe I don’t know who said it, but they said, you can have control or you can have growth, but you can’t have both. And so it’s like you had to let go. You had to find people, train people, and then let go. And then now your ministry is just flourishing and blossoming. But just tell the worship leader, if you’re not doing all the scheduling, if you’re not doing all the onboarding, if you’re not doing all the vocal stuff and putting the resources in planning centre and making the track software, what does Mike do then? What does your week look like? And maybe help us get a vision for what our week could look like.

Speaker 2 Well, it looks different for every single person, whether if you’re a full-time or you’re part-time or maybe you’re a volunteer yourself. I think for me, specifically, I’m the executive pastor of Worshping Creative Arts. So I oversee a staff creative arts. I oversee a staff, creative staff, and my assistant and all those things like that. In that realm, I have a lot more to do than I did before, even when I was a worship pastor. For me to jump up to the level where God wanted to take me, I had to put all of these things in place And I had to finally relinquish that control because that’s one of the hardest things. And so what I get to do now on the worship team is I get to disciple people. I get to disciple all of the music director, the vocal director, all of the leaders, the worship leaders. I get to disciple all of those people, meeting with them for coffee, for lunches, and not really having to be in the weeds of every single decision. It’s so freeing to know that my music director is going to handle the scheduling for March and April and all of those things.

Speaker 2 Then he comes to me, he sends me a copy and says, Hey, what do you think? I say, Well, okay, I like this. I would change this. Okay, great. Send it out. It’s so freeing to be able to have that. So yes, I still do a tonne of things within my role, but it’s more about now being able to not be in the weeds and be able to have more relationship with people, which is really what it’s all about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it’s interesting. You elevate yourself out of the day to day doing all these little tasks. So you can now, like you said, you’re the executive pastor at your church. It’s like you’ve elevated up. As you give away authority to others, you’re actually freed up to move upward to higher leverage activities or more relational stuff or whatever it is you guys want to do. For those of you watching or listening, it’s like, what do you want to do more? Do you want to do more songwriting? Do you want to do more creative stuff? Do you want to do more stage design stuff? Well, if you can elevate yourself out of the day to day weeds stuff and find some capable, qualified, faithful, which we’ll talk about how, volunteers to do those things for you, then you’re freed up to do that stuff that you desire to do. Mike, I always like to start with why. Why should we, and we’ve covered some of it, why should we start to think this way, that I need to begin looking for others to help me lead my ministry? Why should we start thinking? It could be biblical, it could be practical, it could be both.

Speaker 2 When ministry depends on one person. You’re in a mindset of addition, not multiplication. You can’t be in a mindset of multiplying. I actually read in my devotion this morning that there are some things that God wants to do, but you are so stuck in addition that you don’t have a multiplication mindset. It can’t be sustainable. You cannot sustain leadership culture. You cannot sustain your ministry without multiplying your yourself and multiplying leaders. What’s going to happen? Burnout is going to happen to you. Maybe you’ve got one person on your staff, or maybe you’ve got one person on your team. That person is going to get burnout. You’re going to limit growth. Everything runs through one person. Your ministry is just going to plateau. It really is. Your volunteers. One of the most important questions that I was asked was, is there an opportunity for me to Is there an opportunity for me to grow in my leadership? I was like, I’ve never even told them that I would love to have people in leadership early on. Early on, I was like, Wow, I’ve never even told them, I would love for you to be a part of this.

Speaker 2 And so volunteers start to disengage a little bit because they feel like they’re just replaceable workers and not invested leaders. But when you start thinking this way, people start stepping into gifts that they didn’t even know they had, gifts that you didn’t know they had. They start to take ownership of the ministry. And it’s again about releasing that control. Your ministry starts running smoothly. Even when the worship pastor isn’t I’m there. I’m going to be gone. I have a month sabbatical this year. This is the first time I get a month. I’m not worried because I know that my team is going to be able to handle everything. Then also, I think that pipeline for future leaders. It ensures the longevity of your ministry. It also ensures the legacy of when you’re not there anymore, you don’t leave a ministry that’s in shambles. I don’t know about you if you’ve ever jumped ship from a ministry to another ministry, or maybe you’ve been called to another ministry, and you get there and you’re like, whoa, this thing did not run smoothly at all. When my time is done at Bloom Church in Branson, Missouri, as the worship pastor, I want to be able to hand it off and have systems, processes, and be able to like, here is a ministry that is ready to go for you.

Speaker 2 All you’ve got to do is follow the guidelines of this. That’s why I think we have to start thinking this way.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it’s so good. It’s so healthy. I think you mentioned something that I think most of us haven’t thought of, which is people actually want to do more. They’re asking you, Is there a way for me to grow here? Is there something for me to grow into? And you’re like, Oh, my gosh, I didn’t even tell them that there is something for them to grow into. I think people on our team, many of them are busy. They got families, they got jobs. But there are some on our teams that they’re like, I want more. I want to do more. I want to be involved. I want to have a mission and a purpose. Everybody wants to feel like they belong and that they’re a part of something. And I think letting them know that there is something that you can call them into is exciting for people. And I think it’s important for all of us to shift our mindset that it’s not your job to do it, dear Worship Leader. It’s not your job to do it. It’s your job to make sure it gets done. There’s a big difference. So does that make sense?

Speaker 1 It’s not your job to do it. It’s your job to make sure it gets done.

Speaker 2 It doesn’t have to be you. Because ultimately, it’s about you are the one that are responsible for that task. You’re the one who gets talked to in a staff meeting, not the person who didn’t do it. You’re the ultimately one who gets talked to about it.

Speaker 1 Right. And so that should set you free to be like, okay, I don’t have to be the one to schedule my team. I can train someone else to do it. I don’t have to be the one to build the tracks. Maybe there’s someone on my team who’s really geeky and into music and they want to do it. So hopefully that sets some of you free to start thinking, what are some of the things I can release? Our job as leaders is to figure out, to build the system and find the right people to run the different pieces of the system so that it runs smoothly. But we don’t have to run every piece ourselves. We just have to see the vision for, okay, I need this, I need this, I need this. It should probably be done like this. Who could do that? Okay, this person can do that. Our job is to be the CEO of the company, so to speak, of our ministries. And I know maybe we’re speaking in terms that you’ve never thought of before, but I just want you guys to start to realise I can be free from this.

Speaker 1 I’m thinking about, for example, one of the wonderful people watching live is Sunny, and she’s a com director at her church, and she’s the worship director, and she’s a mum of two toddlers, and she’s busy and stressed. But maybe we can start to teach Sunny and others like her that think about who you can delegate and offload to and raise up. And it’s not just that you’re using people, you’re actually giving people a purpose. And I think there’s a difference, and Mike is going to get into that in just a second. If you guys are curious about some of the things that Mike’s team does, we will have some job descriptions posted for you. But one interview that I did with Mike a year ago was specifically about his music director role and all of the details that go into that. And so I will make sure to, in the academy, link that for you, or if someone’s watching later on YouTube, to link that below this video. But you can watch Mike discuss all the different things that his music director is responsible for how they’ve structured that role. But let’s talk about identifying people, Mike.

Speaker 1 How did you find these people? How did you identify these people? If you’re feeling stuck, mediocre, or inadequate in your ministry, if you know there must be a better way of doing things, but you’re not sure how, if you’re looking for fresh inspiration and new ideas that will improve your ministry and give you a team that you’re proud of leading, then I invite you to join me and over 1400 worship leaders from all over the world who are growing inside the Worship Ministry Training Academy. Our C3 format is proven to get you results because you get courses, coaching, and community. The courses teach you what to do, the coaches help you apply it to your specific situation, and the community helps you stay accountable and encouraged as you take the right steps to improve the ministry God has called you to. Get access to over a dozen practical courses, 20 time-saving templates, done for you team discipleship material, and live expert interviews with guests like Matt Redman, Christian Stanfield, Charity Gail, and others. The best part is it’s completely free to try for 15 days. Yes, free. If you decide to sign up, the Academy is by far the most affordable online worship school that there is out there.

Speaker 1 Join thousands of other worship leaders like Alicia and Hyme, who both say the Academy has completely transformed their ministry. I hope you’ll start your free trial today. Take the guesswork out of building a thriving worship ministry and get a proven game plan to success. Go to worshipministrytraining. Com and click that big red button, and I hope to see you inside the academy this week. How did you find these people? How did you identify these people?

Speaker 2 Well, one, I read The Ideal Team Player. If you haven’t read that, go read that book, Patrick Lincioni. Did I need people who were humble, hungry, and smart? Those are the type of people that I needed. But I figured out what I needed was I needed people who were faithful, people who were faithful to the ministry. Do they show up consistently? Are they dependable? I think that’s really, really important. I’m also looking for teachability. This is a big one, I think, for me, is I used to not be teachable. That was a really, really big one for me was, are you willing to learn Are you willing to grow? And are you willing to be corrected? Can I have a correction conversation with you and you not freak out and it just be what it needs to be? And do they take initiative? Faithfulness, teachability, and do they take initiative? Do they solve problems? Do they take ownership without being asked? And I think a little fourth one, I think, is influence. How do I identify people? Faithfulness, teachability, initiative, and influence with the team, specifically? Are volunteers just naturally following them? Are they already stepping up without a title?

Speaker 2 My music director, he has such good rapport with every single person on our team. I’m like, Okay, this is a guy I need to get on the bus. Like Jim Collins said, I need to get him on the bus immediately. Those are the things that I looked for when I started to identify them.

Speaker 1 I’m just thinking about a worship leader listening, and they’re like, Mike, I don’t really have anybody on the team who has those qualities, at least fully developed. So what would you say to that leader? Let’s just pretend there’s a team that’s four or five people, and they’re 60-year-olds and 14-year-olds, everything in between. Some of them are busy and they have families, some of them don’t have time. Who would you focus on in that group?

Speaker 2 I would probably look for someone who is teachable because most of the time, if they’re teachable, they’re probably going to be able to take initiative or want to take initiative. And then also, they’re probably on time. If they’re teachable and you’ve corrected and you’ve said, Hey, I need you to not be late. Hey, I need you to not be this. They’re usually going to be on time and they’re going to be consistent. So I would look for someone who is teachable, first of all. That’s the first thing.

Speaker 1 Mike, how do you foster a deeper commitment from these people when you’re asking so much from them? Like, your MD does all the stuff that you should be doing, technically speaking, according to your job description. So how do you find somebody that committed? And I’ve had in the past people that I’ve tried to train to do something, but they don’t do it consistently or they forget X, Y, Z. So how did you foster that commitment?

Speaker 2 I think the first thing is you got to set clear expectations, right? You’ve got to set clear expectations. That job role that Alex is going to give you. They’ve got to understand what they’re getting into, and you got to hold them to those expectations. Commitment, spiritual growth, they all matter, and setting those expectations is huge. I’m Another thing is that I’m looking for quality, not quantity, and so I’m not making it too easy for people. If there’s no buy-in, people will flake out. This is a mistake I made a long time ago. I think I just put someone in a role because I didn’t want to hurt their feelings. I had a pretty small team, and there was a few people that they were friends with, and I was like, Oh, I could throw this guy into this. Well, I never set clear expectations. I threw them in, and I made it way too easy. He started coming to the meetings. He’s not contributing He’s not doing anything I’ve asked him to do. I’m now requiring a process. I’m not throwing someone on a leadership team that’s only been in my church for two months.

Speaker 2 I’m making sure that there’s a process, and I’m not going to make it too easy because I want there to be buy-in. I think the other thing is building the team culture where people feel valued, connected, challenged. If you have a relationship with these people, if you have a relationship with your leadership team, they will grow, you will grow, and they will be committed. And I think the other thing is give real responsibility. Give real responsibility. People rise to the level of ownership that they’re given. I’ll say that again. People rise to the level of ownership that they are given. Give them not just tasks, but when it’s time, give them ownership and relinquish that control. I think that’s how you can foster the deep commitment from people.

Speaker 1 So you’re basically saying call them to more and then tell them that you trust them. When they come to you and they’re like, Hey, I’m thinking about this or that, then you say, I trust you to make the right decision. I’m happy to weigh in, but I trust you. Because now they’re like, Oh, wow. Oh, he’s really giving this over to me. I better own it. So part of the owning, letting them own it and be responsible is that you stop owning it, right? Is that what I’m hearing? If they feel like your hands are still in their pie, then they won’t feel the weight of the responsibility because they know that you’ll just pick it up if they drop it. Is that right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I’m keeping the hand out of the cookie jar, trying to let them just run with it. When they make mistakes, which they will, I’ll correct them. I would rather you do something, make a mistake, and I’ll correct it than not do anything at all. That’s hard for some people. I have someone on my leadership team that wants to know exactly what I think, and they want to know exactly how to do it. I’m like, What do you think? What is it that you think? They’re like, Well, I think this. I said, That sounds great. Run with that. Yes, keeping my hand, like you said, out of the pie and letting them actually have some ownership, have decision making power, and making sure that they understand that I do trust them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there are a few questions here in the chat about burnout, right? So both Alicia and Sonia are like, Hey, I don’t want to burn out these people who are already so busy. They have so much on their plates. They’re barely doing the normal stuff I’m asking them to do. How could I ask for more? So, yeah, how do we avoid burning out these volunteers as we raise Well, burnout comes when people don’t feel valued, cared for, connected, challenged, when they feel like they’re just…

Speaker 2 I’ve heard a lot from team members, Well, I’m just a name on a schedule. That’s when the burnout happens. Now, there are times when there is too much. I had someone who I very much value, and I was asking them to do, during COVID, a lot of extra things, and they were a volunteer, and he came to me and he said, Hey, I’m struggling to get these tasks ask done. We modified and we changed our plan, and it actually became a better plan. I think, too, one of the things I learned in banking, actually, when I used to be a banker, is I would sell these credit cards to people, and I would always just say no for people. I always just say no. They’re like, Oh, no, they can’t. No, they’ve got too much on their plan. Oh, they’ve got too much on their schedule. Oh, they’ve got too much. I’m just literally saying no. Oh, well, they don’t have this in their banking. Whatever it was. And then come to find out, my MD is one of the busiest people I know. He’s very heavily involved in a construction company. He’s a foreman.

Speaker 2 He has two kids. His kids have soccer and baseball and all of these things. And yet he’s one of the most committed volunteers there is. So don’t say no for people. Ask them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And they might find their purpose in that task that you’re asking them to do. So the task does have to match their personality. Would you say that’s true, Mike?

Speaker 2 Yes. However, I do think roles can be taught. Like music director role, there are attributes of the role that I had to teach him. He knew nothing about computers. So there are attributes of the role that you can teach people, but it does have to match their personality. You can’t throw someone on an MD who doesn’t know anything about music.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like Anna said, do you think it’s more about calling out giftings rather than piling on tasks? Maybe that’s a good way to think about it. I think that’s really wise, Anna. Yeah, that’s for sure. I do want to break everybody’s brain here for a second and show this really crazy org chart that Mike has. I’m not sure how visible everything is here, but I’ll read it. It’s Worship Pastor, and he has an admin. Then there’s a campus worship director over here on the left, and then a development pastor over here on the right. And underneath the campus worship director, there’s a vocal director who then has vocal leaders. There’s a few vocal leaders under the vocal director. The campus worship pastor is also over the music director who has band leaders, admin help, software help. So this org chart is something that Mike developed. It’s mind boggling, but it’s his ideal leadership structure for his ministry. And I’ll make sure all this is posted in the academy here soon. But Mike doesn’t have somebody in every single one of these positions yet, but it’s an org chart to aim towards. If I had my ideal worship ministry, who would be doing what?

Speaker 1 And once you lay it out, you can see I would need a training system and a training team and a training person and somebody over all the event planning, and maybe they have an assistant. If you could lay out your dream big ministry, having this all laid out is pretty helpful. And then he can begin to recruit and find people with the natural giftings to fit into some of those slots. Hey, you’re really administrative. I’ll train you how to do my planning centre scheduling. Would you be willing to do that for me? Or, Hey, you are very detail-oriented. Would you be the one to create the core charts for us? I’ll create a video showing you how to do it. Every Monday, could you commit to doing an hour? Just start to fill people into this role here, this org chart role here.

Speaker 2 I don’t have all those roles filled, okay? I used to have a development pastor. I don’t anymore, but I still have those roles underneath that person. I want people to understand this is not an exact science to this at all. Leadership is messy. People are messy. Don’t be intimidated by that. That’s my ideal leadership structure that I want to see in my ministry. I think it’s really important to build the infrastructure because if you don’t build the infrastructure, then you don’t know what to shoot for. You don’t know what to strive for. To understand that, okay, so if I’ve got someone who I want to do team events and I want to do them quarterly, well, that’s a lot of work on you. Maybe I can find someone, maybe a little lady in our church who’s not even a part of the worship team. It doesn’t always have to be, Oh, we recruited them for the worship team. How about we find someone who loves doing events in our church and say, Hey, would you mind helping us with an event quarterly for our team? We’re going to do a barbecue. We’re going to do a chilli cook-off.

Speaker 2 We’re going to do whatever those things are. I think we get locked into, Well, they didn’t sign up for my team, so I guess I can’t use them. Well, I heard Susie over here who’s 75 years old, loves to cook. Let’s bring her on to help on our events and things like that. So thinking outside the box a little bit.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that’s really good. Thinking beyond just the musicians on on your team. You’re actually creating a team that’s bigger than just musicians. Talk to us about your circle, your pastoral care group type leaders. What does that look like?

Speaker 2 I call that my circle. Basically, what it is, is I have identified and asked 12 right now leaders to come alongside me and help shepherd and pastor our team. There are about 75 on our team, and I cannot pastor and shepherd every single one. I have started raising up these MyCircle leaders. I meet with them quarterly. Each person has 4-5 people who they are reaching out two weekly, whether that be on a Sunday, maybe they see them on a Sunday in passing, maybe they take them out to lunch, maybe they for coffee, maybe they send them a encouraging text. There’s all different ways to reach them. But these 12 people have 4-5 people, some three, some six, some seven, and basically help me do the shepherding. It’s not that I don’t want to do the shepherding, but I’ve now got to shepherd those 12 people, and I’m looking for a development pastor to help me shepherd those 12 people so that I can shepherd the five to six of my leadership team. But I shepherd right now all of those people on my team, and they shepherd the volunteers underneath them. That’s how it works.

Speaker 1 Are all of those people on your worship team, or are they also outside of the musical sphere?

Speaker 2 All of them are on either worship, creative, or production. I have a new guy. He was a Salvation Army pastor for 50 years, and he just came to our church probably about a year ago, and him and his wife loved it. He signed up for production, and I met with him, talked with him. He was in a live group with me, and I’m like, This guy should be shepherding people. So yes and no, not everyone is the worship, but they are all within the circumference of the departments that I lead.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah. And there’s another interview I did recently, guys, where the guy, he calls it Distributed Care, where he has leaders on his team who care for his worship team, and the leaders of his distributed care team are not even musical. So like Mike said earlier about the event coordinator, they don’t even have to be musical. If they