Power-packed worship leading w/ Charity Gayle

Speaker 3 (00:00) We have to be very careful that when we get up on a platform, that’s not the first time that we’re eating. The best way to look at it is all week long, I’m eating, I’m taking in the word, I’m soaking in his presence so that by the time I step onto a platform, that’s not the first time I’m saying, Hey, God, that week. I’m so full of him, and I have this platter of his word ready to go. I have a platter of what he’s been speaking to me, and I’m able to actually serve the people of God. I feel like so often we witness worship leaders. It’s not that you’re doing anything wrong right now. It’s just that you’re currently eating when you should be serving. Walk up onto a platform already fed, already full, ready to explode out what the Lord has been speaking to you, you suddenly have something that can be of value to the people because you’re not experiencing the Lord for the first time that week.

Speaker 4 (00:53) Welcome to the Worship Ministry Training podcast, a monthly podcast for worship leaders who are serious about growing in their craft and calling. My name is Alex, fellow worship leader. Super stoked you’re here. If you’re a new listener, I’m going to encourage you to hit that subscribe button because every single month, I’m going to give you helpful, practical guidance that you can immediately implement into your ministry. Hit that subscribe button and then go back through the past nine years of episodes and binge listen your way to a healthier ministry. If you’re someone who is really serious about growing as a worship leader, I’m going to point you to the Worship Ministry Training Academy. What is the academy? It’s an online training platform that will give everything you need to build a thriving worship ministry. You’ll get 10 in-depth courses on topics like set building, team building, musical excellence, vocal technique, and more. You’ll get live monthly training workshops on topics that are relevant to you. You’ll get exclusive expert interviews with some of the best worship leaders in the world. You’ll get done for you, Ministry Admin Systems and Audition Process, onboarding documents, team training materials, and even team discipleship materials.

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Speaker 3 (02:18) Well, many worship leaders want to lead with power, passion, and authority on stage, and also have that same congruency in their private life, where they’re living out that same focus, purity, and prayerfulness. And yet many of us struggle with a lot of those topics. And so I’m excited to bring on our power couple today. We have Ryan Kennedy and Charity Gail. They’re going to be talking about authority, power, prayer, purity, and more. So I’m excited to bring them on. Hello, Charity and Ryan. What’s up?

Charity Gayle (02:46) Hey, everybody. Hey, guys.

Speaker 3 (02:49) Hey, guys. Well, Ryan and Charity are so happy to have you. I was looking through the last 10 years of podcast episodes, and I realized you are the first married couple to appear on the podcast together. So congratulations. You’re like Beyoncé and Jay-Z right here. Oh, man. So funny. All right. Well, since you’re the first married couple, I do have an important marriage question. Out of the two of you, who snores more?

Charity Gayle (03:14) That’s a hard one. He snores when he’s sick.

Speaker 2 (03:16) You snore when you’re pregnant. Yes.

Charity Gayle (03:19) I’ve always been pregnant twice, but I’ve been a snore both times. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:22) Well, at least that’s temporary, right? Both of those things, they go away. Anyway, so I don’t want to cause conflict on our first conversation. Conversation.

Charity Gayle (03:30) The first time we’ve ever been asked that question, and you’re really impressed that we both have the answer.

Speaker 3 (03:36) Yeah, I’m impressed, too. Well, moving to a more serious topic, as you heard in the introduction, I really do appreciate and value both of you for the power, the authority, the clarity, the presence, the passion that you bring to your worship leading and your songwriting. In particular, Charity, there’s something about your presence on stage that it’s not flashy, it’s not seeking to draw attention, and yet there is this weight or this solidness to your presence on the platform as a leader. And knowing a little bit about you guys, because I did some research, you are starting a prayer movement, a 24 7 prayer movement in Texas. And I’m assuming that the power and passion and authority that we sense from both of you in your leadership comes from a life of devotion and prayer. So do you want to speak into any of that at all?

Charity Gayle (04:27) Yeah. I, first of all, thank you. That It’s an honor to be used of the Lord. I think when it comes to being on the stage or off the stage, you need to be consistent. If I’m on the stage in front of 3,000 people or I am in a prayer room with 30 people. God is still worthy of all of the praise, all the worship, all the time. I get a little discouraged when I see worship leaders that’ll sit in the congregation and not worship just because they’re not the ones on the platform. And if you know us for any length of time, you’ll know that Ryan and I both live this way, that who we are on the platform is who we are off the platform. And we’ll host worship nights in our living room. Ryan, especially has been leading prayer movements on Wednesday mornings and gets up at 7 AM, or earlier than that. It starts at 7 AM, and we call them day break prayer meetings, and it’s prayer and worship. But it’s because we want to seek God first in all things, like it says in Matthew, and when we seek his kingdom first, all these things will be added unto us.

Charity Gayle (05:34) And so I believe that also means that when we seek him first, anything that we might be seeking of ourselves just melts away. It’s that song that says, everything will grow strangely dim. When you seek him first, it’s absolutely true. Nothing matters after that. And it’s been a really beautiful thing because I feel like I’ve just loved the Lord even from a very young age and started leading worship when I was a teenager. And there’s bumps along the way. You get to know yourself and who you are in the Lord and our identity is in him. But I have found that every time I put the Lord first, every time I start out with prayer and adoration unto the Lord that he does the rest. I think even we just started tour back up on Sunday in San Antonio. It’s a prime example because I have not led worship on the platform in almost half a year. There because I had a baby at home. But when we got there, not knowing what was going to happen, I said, God, you’re worthy of my praise, even if my voice can’t handle it, or if I feel like I’m not up to par as I normally am, and I feel like we should still lead from a place of an altar, even though we may be capable of leading from a place of power.

Charity Gayle (06:51) I love the Lord of my whole heart, and I want to serve him in any capacity that I can.

Speaker 2 (06:57) I think one beautiful thing about prayer is that it’s a perspective changer. When you spend time with the Lord, your situation might not always change, but your perspective on that situation changes. As worship leaders, when we are like David and our heartbeat truly is this one thing I ask, this one thing I see to dwell in your house, to gaze upon your face, it changes your perspective when you walk out on a platform. It changes your perspective even when you’re in the living room with 10 people because it’s like, this isn’t about performance. This isn’t about how awesome this next rift I’m going to sing is. It’s like, all of a sudden, the perspective is this one thing I desire is simply to look upon the face of the Lord, be transformed in His presence, be more like him when I leave this place. To also know that we’re fully accepted in his throne room as sons and daughters. There’s nothing we have to do to impress him. There’s no cool way of transitioning a song that the Lord is going to be like, Wow, I’ve never thought of that before. We simply can just rest in the fact that we’re sons and daughters and we just get to love on the Lord.

Speaker 2 (08:08) That’s one thing I love about Charity watching her. There’s this stability in her, and I think it’s rooted in the fact that she just knows she’s the daughter of the King. When she goes out there, whether there’s five people or 5,000, she’s not out there to impress. She’s out there for an audience of one. I know that’s cliché, but that’s really what it is. She’s out there for an audience of one. I think that really does come down to if you You spend time with the Lord and he speaks to you, you spend time in his word, you start to change your perspective. The highest calling is not to be the best worship leader. It’s to be faithful to the call of God, which is to look more like him, to walk like him, to be his hands and feet. When we lead in ministry from that perspective, the context of worship leading that we’ve bought into just crumbles away, and you start to realize that we’re simply called to be servants and to be and to live holy and blameless. It takes the weight of performance off of us, and we get to just let alone the Lord.

Speaker 3 (09:08) Wow. I really want to highlight a few key concepts. There was so much gold there, so everybody go back and rewind and watch it a thousand times a Sometimes. But in terms of identity, it sounds like your identity is core. And once you know that God loves you and you’re his child, you have no desire for the things of this world or to impress others or the opinions of others. And you’re not there to get accolades from thousands of people or hundreds of people or 10 people. You’re like, who cares about the people? Period. I’m here for God. And that’s why I feel like there’s this authority on your life is because you’re not doing it Or it’s like it said Jesus didn’t entrust himself to them because he knows what’s in the heart of man. It’s like that, right? So any more thoughts about that?

Charity Gayle (09:53) I would say, too, we are to love God and his people. And when you are absolutely fixed on the idea that we’re here for God first. But then we say, Okay, Lord, we’re going to serve you, but we want to draw your people in. How do we do that? I think something that I’ve learned along the way is in order for us to serve them, we have to love them in spite of ourselves and in spite of them sometimes. I was told something that when you’re given accolades or you’re given critique, you take those things and then you lay them aside. You can’t hold on to any of it because If you take the criticism, it brings you down. But then if you also take the glory, it boosts up your pride, which isn’t good either. So to remain completely fixed on the Lord and what he’s asked you to do, but to love the people and say, Thank you. Yes, I appreciate a compliment. Hold it and then let it go. Or if someone critiques you, I feel like we hold on to critique more than compliments anyway. When someone critiques you, you say, Okay, Lord, if there’s something that I learn from that, okay, and then you let it go.

Charity Gayle (11:02) And if there’s something that you can’t learn from it, just let it go. And I think that’s also helped me stay stable in being able to say, Okay, Lord, if I see somebody looking at me that I’m not sure what their read is in the congregation. I’m not focusing on that. I’m focusing on you in order to pull people in, in order to put people in as we enter in. So I think it’s important that we also, as our perspective changes through prayer, that we realize that we should also draw as many people in as we can.

Speaker 3 (11:33) Yeah, I feel like, and we’re going to talk about that because you do that really well where you’re there, you’re leading, but you’re transparent and you invite people in. So we are going to discuss how you do that because I think there are some mindset things we can learn from you, as well as some practical tips that you have on that. But right now, Charity, I think if I recall, I listened to a podcast episode with you. Are you a preacher’s kid or you just grew up in the church? You are?

Charity Gayle (11:59) Yeah. And a preacher’s niece, and a preacher’s niece, and a preacher’s niece, and a preacher’s niece, could go through the lift. Very, very ministerial family. I’m a church kid.

Speaker 3 (12:09) Yeah. And the reason I ask that is because in both of you, there is a depth And Burke Ligerwood said something about an iceberg life. You only see this much of the iceberg, but there’s like 90% of it’s below the water. And so there’s this depth to you that both of you, when you’re singing, your songs have a depth just in the songwriting, but there’s also a depth of understanding in delivering the lyrics. And so there’s this whole weight of an iceberg underneath your delivery and underneath your worship leading. The reason I’m bringing this up is because I think it’s so important that we read ourselves deeply in the word, in prayer, in private worship. We’ll get into what that looks like for each of you here in a minute. But what I see a lot when I review live streams of other churches, and I want your take on this, is I see a lot of almost cheerleading. I see a lot of worship leaders who operate more as cheerleaders than pastors, and they’re up on stage, they’re trying to hype up the congregation, and they’re jumping around, and they’re saying honestly, trite and trivial phrases like, Let’s praise the Lord.

Speaker 3 (13:17) It’s like there’s no weight behind those words. They think that by cheerleading the congregation, they’re actually going to encourage people, and the lights are flashing like a light show and all that stuff. I just think like, Man, what people is not a cheerleader. They need a shepherd. What people need is to see Christ more clearly, and when they do, they’ll worship more passionately. What I sense in both of you is a depth of the word and of a long-standing relationship with God. When you get up there, You’re not trying to cheerleader. You’re just like, boom, straight to the point. So any thoughts on that observation?

Speaker 2 (13:50) Yeah. I mean, everything you just said is so true. We love to talk about history with the Lord. It’s like James says, Consider it joy when you face trials of all kinds. I think it’s important that we don’t try to find a loophole out of our trial, but that we walk through it and ask the Lord not why, but what are you trying to teach me? Because I think that has been a major theme in Charity and I’s life that whenever we’ve faced a trial, we’re not perfect at this, but I feel like we’ve been through enough now that our first question is not why, it’s what are you trying to teach us, or how can we see more of who you are through this? You You get to the other side of it and you have that history with the Lord because now you’ve seen him as healer, you’ve seen him as provider, you’ve seen him as sustainer, and you have a testimony of who he is. When we get up on a platform, we’re not just singing, when we sing, You keep your promises, or I speak Jesus, we’re speaking the name that is above every name.

Speaker 2 (14:52) It’s not just a head knowledge thing for us. It’s like we’ve experienced the very real, tangible hand of God in our life. When we sing that he can break every stronghold, we’ve experienced that for real. He’s broken strongholds off us, our friends, our family. When we say he can heal, he’s healed Charity’s body of cancer. He healed our son in the NICU. He’s healed my mother of a chronic disorder. We’ve experienced, so we have history with the Lord, and we can stand firmly planted in the experience of his faithfulness over and over and over again. There’s that part Then I would also say, too, as worship leaders, I think, again, it always comes back to that secret place. I think there’s a quote. It said, Whatever you hope to see in public, you have to see first in private. If we hope to see a move of God in our churches in public, we’re first going to have to experience that firsthand in the secret place. If we want to see just an extreme move of worship where people are just weeping and their hearts are changing, we first have to experience that so that we can lead people when that happens in our services.

Speaker 2 (16:02) So always comes back to that secret place, man. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:07) Is that what they do at the jazz clubs? They camp. Fire, buddy. That’s so fire. Charity, you have any thoughts that you want to add?

Charity Gayle (16:14) Yeah. And I’ve been guilty of cheerleading. I just want to say that. I think sometimes when you get to where it becomes routine, that is a red flag to yourself. Say, Hey, I’ve been so busy this week. My kids have been acting up. My parents, my whatevers. We have our lists. I think what we need to start focusing on, though, is that even amidst all of the things that we can still find time. That’s something the Lord’s teaching me in this season right now. I have two babies under two, and I’m realizing, oh, when I’m feeding this baby, I can be speaking to the Lord. I can be thanking the Lord for my children. I can be praying over my children. I can be saying, Lord, what do you want to teach me through my children? Yeah, Or we tend to be in the car a lot or on a plane a lot, and we’ll just start conversations about the Lord. What is the Lord teaching? Or what did you read in scriptures this week? Or how do you feel like we need to prepare for this next service? There’s always space and time if we prioritize it.

Charity Gayle (17:17) If we get to a point where we feel like we’re cheerleading, let’s not beat ourselves up about it, but let’s realize, Hey, we need to take a step back. Okay, I’m doing this because it’s routine. How do I get out of routine? Routine and start making him my routine throughout the week?

Speaker 3 (17:33) That’s so good. One of my questions is, what does your private prayer life look like? Because if it’s so important, how are you prioritizing that for each of you, if you want to answer that? And then, Charity, you shared, In the midst of mothering, you got to be creative. So we’ll touch on the distraction side of things as well. But just in terms of your private prayer life or, Brian, that weekly thing that you lead every Wednesday, what does that look like for you guys?

Speaker 2 (17:57) Yeah, definitely. Gatherhouse is a blessing to us in so many ways. But one way is that I call it my corporate secret place because we do two hours nonstop prayer worship every Wednesday, and we actually have two other locations that we all switch around. Every week, we have six hours of prayer and worship going on around the city of Houston. But yeah, it’s just so beautiful because we’ll go in, we start at 07:00 AM, and we don’t go with a setlist or a plan. On the way there, I’ll just ask the Lord, Hey, Where do you want us to start today? And he’ll bring scriptures to mind that set us on a path. Then we have local pastors that join us there. It’s just beautiful. The spirit just navigates the whole morning, and we get to just hear from him. He’ll speak with scripture. People will pop up, bring a word. He’ll speak through song. Even there’ll be moments where we just let him speak to us individually. That’s been such a beautiful rhythm for me, even in the midst of our having two children under two, touring. Touring is crazy for us. That’s such an insane schedule.

Speaker 2 (19:06) The bus arrives in the parking lot at 4:00 AM, soundcheck calls at 8:00 AM. We’re busy all day long. It’s like, When do we have time? Sometimes I’ll look at Charity and be like, We got to escape to the bus for an hour and just pray. Because I’m like, I’ve not heard what Lord wants to say tonight, and we’ve got to figure this out. But it’s like, tour. To be totally transparent, it’s difficult. I think in an ideal world, it’s like, Oh, we’ve got this time every day, 30 minutes with the Lord. But I think it’s good to remember to… I think routine is a good word, but I even would rather use the word relationship because we have a relationship with the Lord. He’s not a vending machine that we have to go to a room and hit a button and get a word. He walks with us and he talks with us because the torn veil, we have access to not meet him in a tabernacle or a specific place. This literally Jesus said, You’re not going to meet him on the mountain or in the temple. I’m coming to you to walk with you and live with you, and you’re going to have my voice speaking to you.

Speaker 2 (20:10) It’s like living a lifestyle of prayer Paul talks about. He’s like, I wish that you would pray all the time. It’s like, actually, in the new covenant, we can. I can be talking to the Lord when I’m driving. I can be talking to the Lord while, like she said, we’re feeding the baby. We can be in constant conversation. We meet with him in the word in the morning, and then we just let him speak to us all day long. We have a great community, too, of friends. I’m telling you, when we have dinner together, it’s like church. Surrounding yourself with people who are full of the word of God, who love to talk about what the Lord has been speaking to them. That’s been such a huge encouragement for us just in our personal journeys. We have songwriting retreats, too, where we have four hours where we just talk about the word and what the Lord has been saying, and then we write it into and stuff like that.

Charity Gayle (21:01) I think, too, touching on relationship is really key because Ryan and I have been married a little over five years. I get this picture in my head sometimes about my relationship with the Lord. If all I did was sing to the Lord, and I didn’t talk to him, and I didn’t invite him into my circumstances or my day or my morning. I think about what that would look like if I did that with Ryan. If all I did was write songs for Ryan, but I didn’t talk to him, how awkward would that be? I’m going to sing another song. Here we go. But I had no… If I didn’t talk to him in the car, if I didn’t talk to him before we went to bed at night, How was your day? What did that look like for you? That’s a relationship. I’m the type of person where I’ll be myself up if I don’t feel like I’m doing enough. I have to let go of that sometimes and go, Okay, God, I really didn’t find the time today, but I want to end today with just being able to talk to you and say, That was a crazy day.

Charity Gayle (21:57) We like to pray together. That is That’s a big thing. And with having two babies under two, we really have to be intentional about it and say, Okay, here we are. If both babies have been put down-We’d rather go to sleep. We’d rather go to sleep, but- But let’s spend some time. Let’s just talk to the Lord for a few minutes. So So it’s such a reminder to me when I’m like, Man, I’m not talking to Ryan in 6 hours because he has one baby, I have another baby, and we’re just trying to joggle the day, right? But then we say at the end of the day, Wow, I just need to look at you for a second. I think that the Lord understands, Hey, we’re busy, especially with church work. Church work is a lot of work, but he understands. So when you can just find the time, and go, Okay, I’m just going to take a minute. I’m going to find the time just to say hello to the Lord and just see what he wants to speak to me in his word. Like Ryan said, we love to write songs to the Lord.

Charity Gayle (22:52) When we find the time to write unto the Lord, it’s almost like having a six-hour Bible study because you sit down and you’re like, Wow, this is the thing that I to sing to the Lord today, but maybe I can understand what he’s trying to speak to me as I’m digging deep into his word.

Speaker 3 (23:08) Yeah, I love that. I appreciate your transparency, both of you, in saying it’s not always perfect, it’s not always ideal, because I think a lot of us think, Oh, if I could just be like Mary and sit at the feet of Jesus for X amount of hours, and it’s like, Well, yeah, but that’s not the world we live in, unfortunately. It would be nice. But that idea that we can constantly commune with God. I like how you said you guys go the bus sometimes. You’re like, Hey, we just got to pause and we got to get away. And when you said that, it reminded me of what Jesus did when he was busy all day and all night healing people and said, While it was still dark early in the morning, when no one was around, he disappeared into the wilderness. He’s like, I got to go get with the Lord. Something I’ve been thinking about lately, because personally, prayer is something I struggle with. I can read the Bible every morning, but prayer is hard for me, just being honest with everybody watching. But one of the things I’ve been thinking about is it’s like going to get your directions from your Commander-in-Chief.

Speaker 3 (24:03) If I don’t go in the morning and actually stop and listen in before I pick up my phone or check what’s going on in worship ministry training or look at my emails, before I do any of that, if I go say, Commander-in-Chief, I need to get some direction for the day. Would you please beam me down some directions? I know that’s a weird way to look at prayer, but that’s how I’ve been thinking about it. If that helps somebody in some way, because I could waste a lot of effort, I could spend a lot of time doing a lot of things in the wrong direction. If I just go talk to the boss, be like, Yo, what should I do today? What do you need to prepare me for today? Anyway, that’s where I’m at. I’m trying to get back to that.

Speaker 2 (24:40) The Lord taught me that a few years back because my personality is like, When I got a list of things to do, I just want to jump. I wake up and I’m like, got to jump into it. One day the Lord was like, you realize you would be way more effective and you could do those things in half the time if you were filled with my spirit and not by power or might, but by my spirit, you did those things. I was like, oh, you know what? Again, prayer changing perspectives. It’s like, oh, yeah, that’s a really important perspective change because I could just be flailing around all day long thinking I’m doing something. But if I would have just gone to him in the first place, I probably could have done that plus more if he had given me the directive. So great way to look at that.

Speaker 3 (25:23) Right. It’s like the word the Lord has been sharing to me last week was, Apart from me, you can do nothing. Dummy. Don’t Just get it together and let him work through you. I always say God can do more during your nap time than you could do in 10,000 years of working. It’s true. You could literally take a nap and he could change the whole situation. But you could strive and toil and nothing gets done. Anyway, one thing I’d like to talk with you about is this idea of you’re talking to the Lord during worship leading, but you’re also serving the congregation. One thing that both of you do a great job at is you’re a very strong and clear leader, but you’re also making space for the people in the worship. You’re making space for the congregation’s voice and for their contribution. You do that through your arrangements where you stop singing and let the choir sing. But I love for both of you to talk with us about how do you view that philosophically and how do you do that practically? How do you pull it off? So any thoughts on that? I know we’re shifting gears, but- No, that’s a great question.

Charity Gayle (26:24) I think, again, like Ryan said, make sure you’re coming to the table fed and being full of what you believe God is going to speak to his people. When we start a worship service, I think that we forget also that we can take the time in rehearsal to also bring in our band, to bring in our singers, whoever is involved in worship on the platform. It’s never a one-man show. You have a team of people, and to make sure that that team is also fed. So just a practical thing, come Come prepared. Come prepared to rehearsal having practiced at home. You’re never going to know what’s going to happen. A lyric might not be up on the screen when you need it, or something technical might break, or whatever. But if you are as prepared as you can be, and that means skillfully, like practice and rehearse the songs that you’ve been given to be able to say, Okay, well, distraction can happen in any form, right? It can happen through the people in in the congregation. It can happen through your ears. You could lose your ears completely, not your ear ears, but your ear monitors completely.

Charity Gayle (27:38) And you have to still be able to say, Okay, I’m prepared for this. We had a worship night, and the lights didn’t go out, but everything in the place stopped working. So mics weren’t working. You couldn’t hear the band. And what ended up happening is it actually made the room feel freer because because we weren’t afraid. We weren’t afraid of that moment. We didn’t panic in the moment. What we did is we said, Okay, well, God, we’re here worshiping you, so we’re just going to keep doing that. I walked down into the congregation, and and just sang among the people, and they lifted up their voice. It was a ripple effect, and it went from the front of the room to the back of the room. Then there was another time where the same thing happened, except all the lights went out as well. But we were like, Okay, let’s get all of our phones flashlights out. We all stood in this room, there was about 500 of us, stood in this room with our flashlights and decided that we were just going to keep going because God’s worthy, even if everything fails, if technology If our technology fails, if microphones fail, we keep going.

Charity Gayle (28:49) And so that’s a practical side is be prepared because if you know the lyrics, if you know the melody, and you can lead the people, that’s what we should be doing. The other thing I would say is be practical, but then also you touched on, let’s follow the leading of the spirit, right? So you be prepared as you can be. But then if the Lord throws an audible, and this goes with flow, too, in a service, and I know not every service is capable of flow. But sometimes when a song ends, I just want to sing because he lives. I can face tomorrow because I’m feeling that being led of the spirit in that moment. And what happens in that as well, everybody knows that song, finding a him or finding something that everyone can connect to in that moment that speaks to what the Lord is speaking in that moment. I hope that’s making sense. It brings the congregation to a place where they feel like they own the worship that’s happening in the room, and they can offer it unto the Lord as a sacrifice of praise. Just being able to say, I’m as prepared as I can be, Lord, what do you want to do?

Charity Gayle (29:48) I will offer you my preparedness as a sacrifice, but then if you decide we’re going to go somewhere else, I’m mentally prepared to do that as well. So I think that’s important is to lead space for the Lord to move and for the Lord to work. If we’re going just from point A to point B to point C, I can see how that’s not leaving space for the Lord to minister to his people. Sometimes all it takes is just 10 seconds of, Hey, let’s just pause in his presence, or 30 seconds of a hym, or it doesn’t have to be this big, long thing. It can be even in a transitional period where you’re reading scripture that the Lord put on your heart. Make it work for your congregation. Make it work for your church people and your pastor. Make it work for you, but leave space for the Lord. And I think that the intentionality of being prepared with the songs and scriptures ahead of time will allow you to feel more comfortable when the Lord says, Hey, I think that this scripture for this congregation, that one person that’s never stepped foot in this building before needs to hear.

Charity Gayle (30:55) So I think having both sides of it is really, really important.

Speaker 2 (30:59) Speaking on preparation to the songs that you choose are really important for so many reasons. This could be a whole interview in itself, the songs you choose. But real quick, first of all, they have to be so true to the word of God because some people are like, Wow, that song is so anointed. I’m like, It’s anointed because it’s full of the word of God, because the word of God is anointed. I don’t like throwing the word anointed around, but I’m like, The one thing I do know that it’s anointed is the word of God. So that in a song, it’s going to move the heart of God’s people. But then also choosing songs that your church sings. It’s like we are not there to perform for people. We are there to literally priest them into the presence of God. We have to use the right songs that speak to our people. It might be on the top 10 of CCLi, and that’s awesome. But if your church is not going to sing that song, there’s a million other songs to choose from. That’s when we have to put the pastoral hat on and go, How do I best pastor the people in the congregation into the presence of God to look on his face?

Speaker 2 (32:12) We write songs that we will use live, and then we leave the platform and I’ll say, We’re not doing that one again, or at least not here. Because for me, I would rather the church sing than me do a song that I love. That’s not why I’m there. I’ll listen to that song in the car. But the one that I’m going to choose to put on a screen that’s actually going to end up on the mouths of my people, it’s got to be rooted in the scripture, and it’s got to be something they will actually sing, because that’s really what we’re there to do. I’m not there to sing a song for people. They can watch us on YouTube if they just want to watch us. I’m like, We’re on the platform because the most powerful sound on Earth is the sound of the bride of Christ singing a love song to the King. That’s what I want to hear. That’s why we’ll take the mic out and we’ll just let them sing because it’s a reminder, we’re not here so that you can hear us through mains. We’re here to get you singing so that we can leave it and let the church sing.

Speaker 2 (33:06) But that comes down to they’re not going to sing if the songs don’t make sense or are theologically incorrect. They’re also not going to sing if you’re giving them a song that only Adele can sing. It’s like you got to be intentional about knowing your people. Again, Pastor Hat, you got to know your people. You got to know what they’re walking through. You want to pick songs that speak to the church culture, that speak to the things that your people are walking through, promises, truths that are going to speak into that situation. We change our setlist. We have a setlist on tour, but we’ll change it depending on if we know something in the church that we’re going into that we want to speak to, we’ll add a song in because we want to pastor them. We want to bring them in. Again, it’s like we’re shepherds of the great shepherd. We’re constantly looking at him and then as we’re shepherding. We’re in this, it’s a priesthood. I don’t want to get that gets complicated, but it’s a priesthood because it’s like we’re working in both ways because I have to keep my eyes fixed on him, but I also have to keep my eyes open to look at the people in order to pastor them properly to the king.

Speaker 3 (34:10) I’m doing it again, man. I’m doing it again. I thought it was the snap, the Jazz, hand snaps. Oh my gosh, dude. So much fire from both of you. I just want to say thank you. I appreciate both of you so much. I appreciate your heart because unfortunately, not a lot of people are talking like this. But you’re talking like pastors, and that’s what we need. We need more pastors, less artists. We still need artists, but hopefully artists that are pastors as well. You got a lot of comments on the side. They’re saying, Fire, fire, fire. You got a lot of fire. Someone else said Jazz snaps. Alicia said, Jazz snaps going on over here, too. One of the things you said, both of you said, is prioritizing the people. You’re serving the people. You’re prioritizing their voice over your own. One of the things I like to say is our job is to invite, not impress. I appreciate that about both of you because you have the ability to impress. Your voices are both very strong, but you don’t care about impressing. You’re there to facilitate an encounter, facilitate a response from the people.

Speaker 3 (35:12) One of the things that Charity said was leaving space for the people. I think there are a couple of ways we can do that. Personally, at my church, our musicians are good enough where we don’t need to use tracks. The reason I… Not because of the grid. Everybody thinks it’s because you’re stopped to the grid or whatever. That’s an irrelevant point. The reason I don’t like to use tracks is because the frequencies, you’re filling all the frequencies of the arrangement and there’s no space for the congregation’s voice to be heard. I’m not opposed to tracks. Don’t hear me say that. But that’s just something for people to think about is leave some frequency room for your people’s voices to be heard, and then make space in the sets for people’s voices to be heard. But one thing that I love that you do, Charity, a lot, you often will just stop singing, or you’ll prompt us in advance with your vocal cue, song vocal cue, and you’ll leave the gap there for the congregation and the choir to fill it. I love that technique. It’s something I use. Do you want to speak into that at all before we go on?

Charity Gayle (36:09) Yeah, I just love when the room is the choir. I told Ryan at this last live recording, I said, If the church isn’t there, we’re not doing it because I don’t want it to be something where it’s just my voice. I wanted to hear the worship of God’s people in the room, and they were a part. They were a musician, right? And so I wanted to make sure that people in any church capacity could understand that if we’re leading God’s people in to worship, that you don’t have to carry the load all by yourself. I love being able to say, Okay, here we go. We’re all going to ride into the throne room together, but you have to sing. It’s not cheerleading, though. It’s in a way that it makes them responsible for their worship. We have to teach our people that they’re responsible for their own worship. And there was a point in my life where I was leading worship and I was picking songs that were so good ear candy, like the musicians were loving it, very, very complicated cords, very complicated vocal parts, all this. And I realized that I was picking songs that I preferred, and I was leaving the congregation behind.

Charity Gayle (37:26) And the Lord convicted me, and I started I started this journey where I realized, Hey, I need to stop picking songs based off my own preference. And this is just echoing what Ryan said. I need to look and see where the congregation is at. Do I have people over 60? Do I have children in the congregation? Do I have young Mary? Hopefully, your church looks like the family of God, and you have an array of ages and backgrounds. And so a song that might speak to 50% of your church might not speak to the other 50 %. Well, how do you do that? How do you draw them? And how do you make them responsible for their worship? You give them a song that they can relate to and that they can sing. Music is such a powerful tool for worship, and we need to learn how to make it usable to our advantage. So you’ll see me back off the mic a lot when I know that the congregation knows the song. And if we’re doing, praise the Lord, oh my soul. It’s easy. It’s sing Maybe half of the congregation is not in on it.

Charity Gayle (38:33) So how do I get the other half in? I’ll at the end of the song maybe go, bless the Lord, oh my soul and all that is within me, or pick another song that’s going to grab the other 50 % Because what that ends up doing is it causes the congregation to trust the leadership on the platform. They go, Oh, you know that song that I met the Lord at 20 years ago? You know that? So we have to, as worship leaders, I think, also to expand the repertoire. We have to be doing more than the top 30. We have to. Amen. Because if we don’t, we’re going to miss this person. We’re going to miss that person. And it’s about drawing all of them in. And how do you do that? You have to make sure, again, you’re fed before you come to the table and that you are constantly reintroducing songs. Right now, we’re really loving the worship from the ’90s. I’m coming back to the heart of worship because it’s all about you. See, even that caused me. You know what, Charity?

Speaker 3 (39:36) I just did a hot take about this. Do you know why the worship from the ’80s and ’90s was so good? Because there was no industry. At the time, it was people writing from purity in their bedroom, and now people are trying to get a hit, and they’re writing for the industry. They’re writing for the profit. Yeah, and Kim Walker just talked about this on the last podcast about how the industry came in and swallowed worship, and it’s affected both ways now. But anyway, Sorry. So the reason why the ’90s… I just yesterday, my set was all ’90s music, no joke, the whole thing. And it’s because it came from a place… Literally, there was no profit. There was no industry. It was just people’s love songs to Jesus. And it was so powerful because of that and so potent. Anyway, sorry. That was my hot take. Go ahead.

Charity Gayle (40:19) I think that’s a very valid point, but I just want to point out, too. And it doesn’t matter where you’re at. If you hear a song like that, you’re… Yes, Lord, I want to come back to the heart of worship. It is all about you. I can meet the Lord in my car singing a song like that. And I’m going to say this, too. With new songs coming out, I think sometimes we pigeonhole ourselves stylistically also. Go outside of your comfort zone stylistically when you’re listening to music and say, Oh, well, I probably never would have leaned into that, but I really feel like that’s going to work for my congregation. Be open to listening to different styles of music because it’s not about your preference. It’s about your heart posture. And if your heart posture is on your knees before the Lord, he will speak to you through songs that you probably would have never heard on your own. I think that’s really important for us to expand our repertoire so we can give the responsibility of singing to the congregation. It’s the most important thing.

Speaker 3 (41:15) Man, I just want to talk to you guys all day. Real quick, Lilith from the Caribbean said, Charity, you’re a blessing. Your song, We Need a Miracle, helped me through rough times very recently. So praise the Lord. I want to honor your time. My last question before we talk about your new album, Charity, is now that your influence is growing and the Lord is giving you more platform to steward, how do you protect yourselves and protect each other from Satan’s attacks on your life, on your marriage? What are some practical ways that you help protect each other as God is giving you more influence? Because as your influence grows, I’m sure the target is growing as well.

Charity Gayle (41:54) Yeah, for sure. I really want to be transparent. So I think understanding that I’m not infallible because I think part of me goes, Well, I can handle it. I can handle it. But to be vulnerable before the Lord and go, Hey, I’m really struggling with what this person said, or I’m really struggling with the idea that the next album has to be better than the last, or I’m really struggling with to just be real. In order for us to have authentic worship, we have to come authentically. For me, that’s a little hard because I want to appear to be strong, and I want to appear to be like, I can hold this all together. But now that I’ve had two babies, I’m like, Ryan, I can’t. I just need help. To be able to say, Lord, I need your help. And Ryan, I need your help. Hey, team, really feeling like we need to pray about such and such. And I even had someone ask me the question, Do you feel like you need to top the last album with this new album? And my, Oh, I need to appear holy. She should say, Oh, no.

Charity Gayle (43:01) If one person is affected, it’s been a beautiful thing, which is true. But in that moment of my life, I was like, Yeah, absolutely. I feel that pressure because I’m human and I have a flesh side. I think that if we come to an understanding that we can have struggles, but we need to be vocal about them with the Lord and say, I’m struggling with this, then that is a way for us to be able to alleviate the darts of the enemy. It’s to realize that there are darts to begin with and to realize that we battle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities of darkness. And there are things that are going to come and attack us, sickness, whatever, but we have to just say, Hey, not feeling my best today, so I’m going to need your help, and I’m I’m going to need your help, prayingers. I’m going to need your help. And let’s pray together and let’s focus on the Lord together because we need to overcome this together. Lord, help me. Just being in a posture of authentically real and not trying to carry the load on by yourself, I think It’s a huge, huge way to alleviate the attack of the enemy for sure.

Speaker 2 (44:04) I think having accountability in your life to having people who are not impressed by you is really important. We’ve got a couple of pastors in our lives here locally that they’re not impressed with a dove nomination. We show them pictures of these big venues we’re in. We’re like, Cool. How’s your heart? Having folks who… You can even ask them, Hey, can you be this for me? If see us going off track, know that this is a safe relationship, and you can let me know at any minute that you think we’re going off track. An approval, man, the minute you start to make for the approval of man, you’re done. You’re done. That’s been a prayer and a consistent prayer. Lord, just root out the need for the approval of man because men are always going to fail you. You may be loved and appreciated one day, and two months later, they’re canceling you on the internet. It’s like, you don’t do it for that. You have to do it for the Lord and to take that time to make sure that your heart is set on this one thing that the Lord. I’m doing this for the Lord.

Speaker 2 (45:18) I’m not doing this for an accolade. I’m not doing it for fame. All of those things fall through. You touch it and it’s gone. It’s like we’ve romanticized. Our whole culture is approval of man. It’s everything about Instagram, everything about social media, everything about… It’s how to look best for people. We literally have to do the counterculture thing, which is to forget all about that, be like, as much as this hurts, I don’t care what you think about me. I care more that I’m living righteously before the Lord, and I’m following his every step. I know this might not make sense to you, but he told me to do this. He told me to go right when you’re saying go left. It’s just being okay to live counterculture That has been a huge thing for us. We love it now. We almost get worried when we start to be like, Hey, we’re looking a little bit culture now. It’s like, Wait a minute. Let’s stop and take stock of what we’re actually doing. Because he’s calling us to walk out on the waves, not stay in the boat. Just being aware that the attack is there is a huge part of it, too, and looking out for it.

Speaker 3 (46:21) Yeah. The more impact that God allows you to have, you can be sure the more the enemy is going to come against you. He’s like, That guy is a sergeant in the army of God. I got to take that guy out or that girl. We will definitely be praying for you guys, and we will pray for you today at the end of our Q&A session just for your family and for your ministry and all that. I’d love to talk about your new album, so Joyce is out, and it’s amazing. As soon as I listened to it, the day it came out, I said, I’m calling it, I believe, is going to be the next around the world song. I think it might be. I sing it in my church. Tell us about the album. What do you love most about this particular album?

Charity Gayle (47:02) That’s an easy answer for me. I love this album because every song on it speaks directly to a situation that we walked through personally, and it reminds me of the faithfulness of God. I can sing every one of those songs and be so full of gratitude to the Lord for walking us out of situations and even currently situations that we’re in, that the Lord is in it, that he is the answer. And so the album is called Rejoice, and And it’s based off of the scripture that says, Rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say, Rejoice. And Ryan said it so beautifully on an interview that we had, that we’re rejoicing in the Lord. It’s not like, I’m eternally happy on Earth, even in the midst of all of our struggles. No, it’s rejoicing, knowing that he is our strength and our shield and our sort and our salvation. And that I can say, even though I might be walking through a cancer scare, even though I might be walking through a friend passing away, you can say, even if, but I can rejoice that God is our savior, that if he never did anything for us ever again, he’s already done enough.

Charity Gayle (48:11) And so every single song leads me to God’s unspeakable joy that’s full of glory. And it’s, again, countercultural to have a cancer scare and then two days later be in a classroom with a bunch of students. And we We had so much joy in that room with those students, even though I was walking through one of the darkest times of my life because we were talking about how good God is and because we were talking about how faithful he is. And so every song on the album is a reminder to me of what he’s already brought us out of and what he’s continuing to bring us out of because every song is pointing to a truth and is an answer to a question that God is the answer to our problems.

Speaker 2 (48:53) We can’t wait to hear of the testimonies that the Lord does through songs that are just promises of his word and teaching the church how to have joy in him again.

Charity Gayle (49:03) I just hear congregations singing the songs. To me, it’s an honor, but it’s also very humbling to know that something that was birthed in us is blessing and helping other people connect to the Lord. There’s nothing like that.

Speaker 3 (49:18) I can’t wait till we all get to heaven and see and hear how the Lord used all of your songs and all of your ministry to impact. My guess is probably millions as the generations pass on one to the next. I think the impact of what God has done through your guys’ life and songs is going to be great, and it’s going to be fun to rejoice with you in heaven about all that. Do you have any final words? This podcast will go out probably August, to the general public. Do you have any final words of exhortation to a few thousand worship leaders who will listen to this? And then we’ll do our Q&A, Academy Q&A.

Charity Gayle (49:53) I would say be easy on yourself when things get hard and to also love people through good communication and through being a blessing. Because if you’re able to be a blessing to people, they’re going to trust you more on the platform. If you’re able to be a light to even one of your musicians in a time of need or to one of your congregants, if they see that you are being a loving, Christ-like person, then that’s just going to make them want to dive in deeper with you when you’re leading them on the platform. They have to learn to trust.

Speaker 3 (50:27) Massive, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:29) I would I just encourage you that the word of God does not return void, and it is a firm foundation. We can build our life on it. If he said it, he will do it. His promises are yes and amen. They are sure, and we can take him at his word without doubt, without worry, without wondering, is he going to come through? He’s not a man that he would lie. His word does not return void, and you can read it, and you can apply it to your life, and you can know that he will be faithful to complete every good work that he begins in your life.

Speaker 3 (51:01) Amen. And all the podcast listeners do the jazz snaps in your car while you’re listening to this. You guys are amazing. We’re going to hop into our Academy Q&A. So Academy members, get your questions ready and we’ll spend about 10 minutes with them just before we send them off to their day. But Thank you, guys. Let’s run the outro and I’ll see you in a second.

Speaker 4 (51:17) Thanks for tuning in today. I hope this episode encouraged you, helped you, and pushed you forward in your ministry. If it helped you, can you take a second and help us by sending it to just one person that you think needs to hear this? And if you’re feeling extra leave us a nice, shiny five-star review on Apple Podcasts, or like this video if you’re watching it on YouTube. If you want to discuss this episode or ask questions, we do have a free section in our academy where you can post comments and questions and chat with other worship leaders just like you. And also sample some of our courses. You can go to worshipministrytraining. Com/free to join us inside the free portion of the Academy. If you’re looking for more, check out the full Access Academy. You can get 15 days for just one dollar to start and try things out. Again, you can try all of it for 15 days for just one dollar by going to worshipministrytraining. Com. Hope to see you inside the Academy or else I’ll see you next month for another helpful episode.