Mack Brock: Tips for Arranging Parts for Your Worship Band

  But I think as a creative and as a musician and as someone that wants to do

something that we’re proud of and that inspires us,

it is finding that balance of, like, I want it to be super cool or I want it

to be like what I’m doing, super awesome and super rad.

But I think at the end of the day for worship and what we’re trying

to accomplish on a Sunday morning with our church, with our congregation,

cool is not what we’re trying to do.

We’re trying to worship God.

And there is an element of like, we want to bring our best offering, we want to

bring our best ideas, our best abilities.

Like, I’m all about that. But it is a balance.

It’s a balance of finding, like, what is that paired with Our goal for Sunday is

to worship God and to almost like get out of the way to let him do his thing and

draw the attention off of us onto Him.

And it’s a balancing act.

Welcome to the Worship Ministry Training Podcast, a monthly podcast for

worship leaders who are serious about growing in their craft and calling.

My name is Alex. Fellow worship leader.

Super stoked you’re here.

And if you’re a new listener, I’m going to encourage you

to hit that subscribe button.

Because every single month I’m going to give you helpful, practical guidance

that you can immediately implement into your ministry.

Hit that subscribe button and then go back through the past nine years

of episodes and binge listen your way to a healthier ministry.

And if you’re someone who is really serious about growing as a worship

leader, I’m going to point you to the Worship Ministry Training Academy.

What is the Academy?

It’s an online training platform that will.

Give you everything you need to build.

A thriving worship ministry.

You’ll get 10 in depth courses on topics like set building, team building, musical

excellence, vocal technique, and more.

You’ll get live monthly training workshops on topics that are relevant to you.

You’ll get exclusive expert interviews with some of the best worship leaders

in the world.

You’ll get done for you ministry admin systems and audition process, onboarding

documents, team training materials, and even team team discipleship materials.

We will take care of you so you can focus on leading your team.

If that sounds like something that would be of help to you,

you can try the Worship Ministry Training Academy for just $1

by going to worshipministrytraining.

com Sign up today for your $1 trial and I hope to see you inside of the Academy.

All right, let’s get into today’s episode.

How do we help our bands sound better?

And how do we really create parts and arrangements to our songs to really

elevate them and elevate of Worship to be more impactful and expressive?

I am here today with the one and only Mack Brock to get all of his juicy tips about

how we can better arrange our songs and instrumentation for our worship services.

So, Mack, welcome back to the podcast.

It’s so good to see you, brother.

Hey, what’s up, Alex? How are you doing?

Good, man. How has life been?

It’s been quite a bit of time since we’ve connected.

Last time we talked, you had just stepped away from Elevation Worship.

So give us a quick update and then we’ll get into some arrangement gold tips, man.

That was a long time ago.

I told you right before we started, you were asking, like, what I’ve been

up to, and I basically said I’m doing the exact same thing that I’ve been doing

since I was 18 years old.

It’s just leading worship, writing songs, recording music.

The only difference is that I have three kids now and a wife, and so

that’s another layer of responsibility.

But, yeah, things are good.

I just released a new record about a month ago today.

Yeah, so doing that, it’s awesome.

I listened to about five of the songs before I jumped on the call with you,

and it sounds incredible.

I’m really excited to tell the people about the record,

which we will at the end.

And if you do not know Mac Brock, you should.

He was really foundational to what everybody knows about Elevation Worship.

Like, Mac got them not just off the ground, but into the stratosphere.

So he wrote, performs, and produced songs like oh, Come to the Altar, Do It Again,

resurrecting all these songs that really elevated Elevation Worship

into the orbit.

You were foundational to that.

And so what I want to talk with you about today, Mac, because so many worship

leaders struggle with, like, how to get their bands to sound good

and how to arrange the song so that it’s not just mud or not just, like,

chaos or not just busyness or ugliness.

But even listening to your album with my Apple AirPod Pros, I was like,

dude, the parts in here are so good and so intricate and interplaying.

So I want to talk to you about parts, arrangements, and all that stuff.

And so what are kind of the guiding principles that you think about when

you’re coming to a song to arrange it?

Whether it’s a song that you wrote or it’s a song that you’re Arranging

with a worship band at church, what are some of the guiding principles

that you keep in your mind to building a song and adding parts to it?

Yeah, so I think that is a big question, and that’s such an important question.

Songwriting and song creation is such a mystery in a lot of ways.

Like, who knows how these ideas come into place?

Who knows where they come from other than the muscle of, like,

doing it over and over and over again?

So my mum is a drummer.

I grew up playing in bands with her.

I grew up playing with her at church, and I am not a drummer.

But I think being under her influence, drums have always been the

most important thing to me. Like, from day one.

That’s what I think about when I think about music the most

is, like, what are the drums doing?

And I think in worship music, that is such a key part, because to me,

before hooks, before instrumentation and all that, one of the most important parts

about worship music is the dynamics.

And drums have, like, the biggest play on the dynamics of a song.

And so what’s the journey of the song?

And how does it ebb and flow and go from the mountains

to the valleys and the dynamics of it? And so I am.

If I have a song and it’s just acoustic memo right now, or it’s a piano memo.

The thing that I’m first thinking about before we put it to,

like, tape is what are the dynamics?

Does the song start big and then drop down?

Does it have that gradual build all the way up to this, like, big crescendo

on the bridge or where are we at?

And so that’s the starting point for me.

And then what builds around that, that’s when you start figuring out the hooks.

That’s when you start figuring out what’s the driving force.

Is this a piano song? Is it a.

An acoustic song or whatever all stems from what is the dynamics

of the journey of this song. Yeah, that’s really helpful.

So you’re playing it on your guitar, you’re playing it on the piano, and

you’re thinking, like, what’s the energy level of each section of this song?

And then how do the drums fit into that?

Now, like you said, it’s an art and a science and a mystery.

Like, it really is a mystery.

But, like, what about, like, drum beats? Because you’re right.

I think drum is core.

You know, everybody says worship leader owns the bus,

but the drummer drives the bus.

Drums are core.

So, like, how do you think about drum beats versus melody of the lead vocal?

How are you coming up with like, okay, what kind of beat?

Because the beat can change the entire feel of the song

and you can choose, like, 10 different beats to fit into your song.

So I know these are, like, probably questions that maybe you haven’t, like,

super thought through before, but I like to get into.

Okay, great. Tell us, please.

Thank you. Yeah, no, it’s so funny.

I was playing an event recently with Lee Worley, who is a drummer

for all, like, the early Elevation stuff.

He’s a worship leader now in Charleston.

But me and him, I mean, we worked so closely on drums back

in, like, early Elevation days.

And listening back, and I’m talking, like, early, early, like,

for the Honour is the album.

Me and Lee were so obsessed with creating these hyper intense drum moments

or hyper intricate drum parts.

And that was, like, a season, and we were, like, very focused on that, and that was,

like, the most important thing to us.

And then as I’ve grown as a producer, as a songwriter, and as a worship leader,

I’ve become less fixated on that.

I still care so much about drums.

I care so much about what the drums are doing, but I care more

about the feel of it.

And so I care less about, is this drum fill awesome?

Is this complicated and interesting?

And will drummers think this is cool? Which.

I used to be obsessed with that to. To.

I.

I just care, like, how does this feel in the song?

Does the drum beat just need to be as simple as doom?

Is that better for the song than it is to have, like,

an interesting beat or whatever?

And so I don’t have a rule of, like, here’s how you figure that out, or here’s,

like, the guidelines to make sure, like, the kick pattern is, like,

what it needs to be, other than getting into the room

with people and experimenting and trying it out or sitting with your drum pad.

I do a lot of, like, early producing just by myself on my computer with no band.

And so it’s just, like, trying different things

to figure out, like, what feels best.

And for the most part, I think, especially with worship,

there is an element where all the instruments, including drums,

need to just make way for the melody, for the lyric, and need to just kind

of clear the path for what’s being said and what’s being spoken in those songs.

Yeah.

I don’t know if you agree or disagree with this, but I think you kind of just said

it, which is the drums and everything else should support the melody.

Right?

So one of the things I think about is I kind of will have my drummers

play the drum pattern that Almost is underneath the melody or matches.

So I’m thinking the song Like We Fall down by the old Chris Tomlin song.

Right. Like we fall down.

So I’m. I would almost go like boom.

So it’s like the kick in the snare. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Right under the melody.

Because you could go like boom.

Like you could do that.

But then it’s not really bolstering the melody.

And so what do you have any thoughts about the kick and snare pattern to

support melody or any thoughts like that?

It’s kind of a case by case basis.

You saying that has got me thinking.

I’ve always heard that song in that way as well.

And, you know, following like the melody in that sense, I.

I have gotten more like, let’s simplify everything.

I think that there is like a case by case basis to where certain songs you

are going to feel like it needs to have some sort of syncopation, some sort

of rhythm with what’s going on.

Like I’ve got a song on my new record called Bless the Lord that has that kind

of beat that’s following the melody and it just kind of creates

this like bouncy energy, you know.

But then other times I would say the melody might be so intricate

or so like syncopated that the drums need to fall back to make room for the melody

to do that and to not overwhelm the song.

And so I think it’s a little bit of this is such a non answer,

but a little bit of like case by case.

What are you feeling like in the moment?

You know, also there might be moments in a song where it is

that syncopation with the melody as it’s kind of building the song.

But then there might be a moment in the song where it just opens up to where

the drums totally get out of the way.

But they’re big and they’re full and they’re like a lot of space

that just opens up the song.

And so you can even do both through the progression of the actual song.

Yeah.

In terms of starting with drums, starting with dynamics, then

you start to layer in other stuff.

So as you’re arranging a song, whether it’s for your album or in a live band

setting, what’s the next thing you’re thinking about as you’re arranging?

Is it the hooks?

Is it the rhythmic subdivided stuff?

What’s next for you in terms of arranging?

And how should Worship Leaders be?

Not that they have to mimic your approach, but what is your approach?

Yeah, I think the secondary thing for me is Kind of what’s

the driving force of the song?

And in worship music, it’ll usually either be like electric guitars,

an acoustic guitar, or piano.

And naturally, I think, just in our world and what we do, acoustic and piano

are the most highlighted instruments.

And I think that’s just because as worship leaders, we want to be able

to control where we’re going, what we’re doing, not be bound

to a specific structure, even of a song.

We want to be able to flow.

We can naturally flow best with an instrument that can be played

by itself, and it feels okay.

And so that’s acoustic and piano.

And so a lot of times for me, after I know the dynamics of the song,

then it’s like, all right, is this an acoustic song or is this

a piano song, or is this a rock song?

And then I start building from there.

Honestly, hooks kind of come last for me of figuring out, because even

with hooks, I’m thinking about those.

Like, how are they accenting the song as a whole?

And so I’ll build out everything else.

I’ll build out the acoustics, I’ll build out the piano.

What is the driving force of the song?

How is the dynamics flowing?

And now we take a step back and say, okay, what are the hooks

that are going to support this?

And then occasionally in that hook process, sometimes you’re going

to come across hooks where you’re like, oh, that is the song.

That’s the driving force of the song.

Even though it’s like the last thing that we created.

Yeah, that’s really interesting.

I thought you were going to say drums, then hooks, but you’re saying,

build out all the other stuff.

Hooks are last. That’s true.

Yeah. No, that’s good.

So, like, the song resurrecting.

Do, do, do, do, do. Is that the right song?

Am I singing the right one?

That’s like, dun, dun.

Oh, that’s right. That’s right.

I’m thinking a different one.

So did that come very last for you in that arrangement?

Yeah, that was the last.

That was the last thing that we added to that song.

Was that hook leading into it?

Yeah, because it’s so central, like, so many of the hooks,

like you said, it becomes the song.

So talk to us about your approach for hooks and for anyone

listening who’s like, what’s a hook?

It’s that catchy earworm thing, that melody on the guitar or the piano

that you play in between phrases or at the end of the chorus

that gets stuck in your head and kind of gives the song character.

What has been your approach to creating good hooks that stay out of the way

or do what they’re supposed to do.

Again, it’s like a mystery I don’t totally know.

Similar to, like, writing a melody for the song is.

A lot of times it’s just sitting with it.

Sometimes it’s sitting at a piano.

I don’t play piano very well, so if I’m trying to get out of a creative

funk, I’ll sit at a piano.

Because I’m not defaulting to just my natural muscle memory things.

I’m having to think really hard or I’m having to just be out of

my natural comfort zone.

And so sometimes it’s just living with a song, playing around

and seeing if anything catches.

Sometimes it’s just driving around in a car, listening to the voice

memo, singing randomness to see if, like, something sparks.

Those are probably, like, the two biggest exercises to find hooks is to just

sit with it, sit on an instrument that is outside of my comfort zone,

and to mess around with, like, ideas.

I’ve got this song, it’s actually a song that my daughter wrote called

the Best God on my new record that’s really precious and really sweet.

And she sings on it.

And all we had was this, like, little chorus, this chorus that she sings.

And that’s just really sweet.

But we needed more than that for the actual song.

And I lived with that chorus for forever, just singing it over

and over and over again.

And then I sat down at the piano and I had this idea for this.

Oh. Oh.

That had nothing really to do with the actual chorus, but it became just

like the hook that we would sing.

And so that’s, like, the main hook of the song now.

But it was just me sitting down, playing a progression and seeing kind of

like what naturally comes out of me, whether it’s me singing or me

fiddling around on the piano.

And then there are a lot of times, just as an encouragement to any of

y’all out there, there’s a lot of times that I’ll come up with a hook I’d like.

This freaking rules. I love it.

And then I realised, oh, I love it because it’s a hook from one

of my favourite songs that was in the back of my mind that I didn’t

realise it’s the exact same hook.

Okay, we got to re.

Go back to the drawing board.

There’s a lot of times that that happens too.

Yeah.

As I’m thinking about some of the most iconic hooks we talked

about resurrecting, I’m thinking about lion and the lamb do do do do do

do do and then dick a dick a da da da. But.

But the first part of that phrase, it’s slow.

The most iconic hooks, I think probably are, like, fewer notes, simpler.

I mean, I’m sure there are a few, like, from, like, Jesus culture that are, like,

real fast, like, you know, guitar stuff.

Or like, Coldplay has some fast guitar hooks.

But by and large, I think simple, less notes and slow

seems to be a good approach.

I’m just thinking out loud as I’m kind of listening to.

I’m thinking, too, because there’s.

What’s that passion song I went out of my.

That one’s, like, one of the fast ones that I can think of that rules.

That’s, like, got such a good, like, energy.

But you are right.

I think there’s a more lenience to, like, a simplicity.

Finding just that simple hook that grabs you.

Yeah.

And I think that kind of goes back to your previous comment

about less is more space. You know?

Like, I think in worship music, the secret ingredient, and unfortunately,

I see so many worship bands in local churches fail at this.

The secret ingredient is simplicity.

It’s like, play less.

It’s a bad horse, man.

Because as a musician and as a creative, and I think that this goes back

to what I was even saying with the drums on those early Elevation records.

Like, looking back, like, I’m still so proud of that.

I think it’s so sick.

And, like, fine and me and Lee are always like, we’re still.

We’ll still be texting about, like, dude, it was so sick when we did this,

you know, whatever it is.

But I think as a creative and as a musician and as someone that wants to do

something that we’re proud of and that inspires us,

it is finding that balance of, like, I want it to be super cool,

or I want it to be like, what I’m doing, super awesome and super rad.

But I think at the end of the day for worship and what we’re trying

to accomplish on a Sunday morning with our church, with our congregation,

cool is not what we’re trying to do.

We’re trying to worship God.

And there is an element of, like, we want to bring our best offering, we want to

bring our best ideas, our best abilities.

Like, I’m all about that, but it is a balance.

It’s a balance of finding, like, what is that paired with our goal

for Sunday is to worship God and to almost, like, get out of the way,

to let him do his thing and to draw the attention off of us onto him.

It’s a balancing act. Yeah.

It’s this humble sacrificing of your creative itches to better

serve the general public who aren’t super geeky creative like us.

They’re like, I just need a straight snare on the 2 and 4, please, because

I can’t focus when the drums are all bombastic and crazy and, like.

So you’re really sacrificing. Go ahead.

Well, I was going to say one of the most convicting things that I had as,

like, a young worship leader.

And I was a young musician, and young musicians are some of

the most arrogant people on the planet. And I.

I was very much that way.

And I thought, like, all of my ideas were the best ideas.

My taste in music was the best taste in music.

And I’ll never forget, I was asked to lead a worship song at our church.

And I thought it was, like, such a lame song.

I just thought, like, the song is not cool.

This song sucks. I don’t like it.

I’m going to lead it, but I’m going to in my spirit.

It was very begrudgingly, and I saw the atmosphere of the room

change when we started this song.

And I saw people have an encounter with Jesus when we’re leading this song.

While in my spirit.

I was like, this is lame.

And it was such a humbling experience.

I’m getting chill bumps talking about it like one.

Like the Lord’s grace in my life to allow me to lead worship even

in moments where my heart wasn’t in it.

That’s such a sweet grace and a sweet grace he’s had on my life.

But it was such a convicting moment of, this is not about me.

This is not about my personal preference.

This is not about what I think is cool or what I think is awesome.

This is about leading God’s people. That’s my calling.

That’s what he has assigned me to do.

And so it really had a profound impact on the way that I thought about

Sunday mornings and the way that I thought about choosing songs or the way

that I thought about creating songs. It’s so much.

It’s like, get out of the way.

Humble yourself.

Put away all these preconceived notions that you have now.

That’s not to say that I’m not going to try to make the music that I make great

or try to do something that I’m proud of or try to continue to push myself

creatively and all that stuff, but that’s just not the goal.

Right? Yeah.

I think there’s a difference.

In your case, you’re an artist, you’re also a worship leader.

But, like, for worship leaders, the goal for Sunday is it’s not

our creative platform, it’s an altar.

Like you said, we got to die to ourself, we got to die to our ego, we got

to die to our selfish desires, we got to die to our desire to impress people.

And we just got to create a stable, solid, clean platform for the general public

to be able to nod along, bob their heads and sing clearly.

Right.

I recently interviewed Charity Gale and she mentioned that she was picking all

these songs that were all complicated and crazy and great for the musicians,

and they were having fun with it, but she realised she was losing the

congregation and then she’s like, I gotta. I gotta back off.

One funny story about this.

I long time ago talked to this pastor up in Folsom, California,

and he hired as his worship pastor a producer for a lot of Bethel’s,

like, really, really big records.

And the guy was very artistic, always pushing the boundaries artistically.

And one Sunday, he decided to do a five minute guitar effects solo

with guitar knobs, like, just tweaking all of his effects for five minutes.

And the pastor was, like, mortified because the guy, for five minutes,

bent down and was doing all this weird, like, sonic scaping stuff.

And the pastor’s like, oh, no.

And so obviously that guy didn’t last long as the worship pastor, but he.

Was ministering to, like, the two or three guitarists that were in the audience

that were like, this is so sick.

Yes, yes, but at the sacrifice of everybody else.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s so funny.

Okay, so simplicity in our hook, simplicity in our drum parts.

Any other tips that you’ve learned over the years of arranging and just stacking

different frequencies and different layers and parts, like, help us, help us.

And then I have a question later for, like, how do we work with a small band

to get a great sound, but just general things you’ve learned

over the years of producing records?

What are some things that you just think the average worship leader

might not be aware of?

It might seem simple to you, Mac, but for someone else, it might be a revelation.

One thing, this sounds like such, like, an elementary idea,

but if you really start to, like, heed to this, it’ll change so much.

Is don’t be afraid to listen to that voice in your head that’s trying to guide you.

Is there so many times, like, where I thought an idea was cool or I thought

the dynamic, like, I spoke A dynamic.

And I said, hey, I want to try doing a down bridge in this moment,

you know, whatever it might be.

And the moment that I did it, I realised, oh, this is a mistake.

This is not the way the song should be.

But this was my idea.

I don’t want to go back on my idea. I don’t want to.

Or I don’t want to confuse the band and be like, hey, we got to bail on this.

And so I would almost silence my own inner thought to appease whatever

was happening in the room, even though I knew it was kind of the wrong call.

And so I say that to say.

And whether it’s in songwriting, whether it’s dynamics as you’re building

out a song or producing a song, we all have this, like, voice, this guide

internally that’s telling us, go back.

You’re not quite there yet, you’re not quite done.

Don’t give up yet, don’t settle for this right now.

And I just really had to learn to, like, trust that.

And there are some times where my voice is wrong, my ideas might be wrong,

or my instinct might be wrong.

And I have people in my band or people that I’m surrounded with,

that I trust their instinct, too.

So I’m very much a collaborator.

I want to collaborate on, like, everything.

And so I’m constantly, like, asking second opinions, other thoughts.

And so I guess, like, finding those people is also key.

But, yeah, like, really, as a worship leader, you’re the one

that’s leading the room.

You’re the one that’s guiding your people at your church.

Trusting your instinct in that, with them in mind, is such a key thing.

I think that tip right there, it’s understated, but it’s so right.

The collaboration, too, is huge because oftentimes you should ask,

hey, guys, what do you think about this?

Can we try this?

And then ask them, what do you think?

Does that feel right?

I don’t think worship leaders should be afraid to invite that collaboration

and be like, does that feel right? Or does that.

And then they’ll tell you, they’re like, no, that doesn’t feel right.

Yeah. So I think.

I don’t think that’s a. I think that’s a wise tip.

Especially if you’re with people that you trust.

There are definitely probably people on your team that you’re, like,

not gonna totally trust in a musical sense, and that’s okay, too.

And so, like, finding those voices that you agree with, that’s one of the things,

like, I’m a big believer in, like, Partnering with the pastor, like

the lead pastor or whoever’s preaching.

Because a lot of times they’re not musicians.

They don’t know how to communicate.

This is what I need the song to do.

But they usually do have, like, a really good heartbeat

on the congregation in a heartbeat for the atmosphere, you know,

and so they can say, like, yeah, I don’t know why this song didn’t work,

or I don’t know why this moment didn’t work, or why this 5 minute guitar

solo with the effects didn’t work.

But it didn’t.

And we got to figure out, like, what happens.

And you as a musician can try to break down.

Oh, it probably didn’t feel good because of this or that or whatever.

But I do think, like, even that collaboration is important.

Even if they don’t know how to communicate musically, why does that make sense?

Yeah, and it all goes back to what we talked about earlier.

Humility and servitude.

Like, we are there to serve the church and the song.

Here’s a comment from Amanda.

And by the way, guys, we are going to be doing our Q and A at the end,

so please get your questions ready.

About anything.

It could be about arranging, but it could be about anything.

But Amanda said, I definitely have had that happen where I try to make a call,

something I try it and immediately sense it wasn’t the right call.

I mean, that happens to me still.

That happened to me recently where I was like, in my head,

I was like, oh, this would be such a great moment to go down instead of big.

And it was such the wrong call.

But I still, like, I was like, let’s try it in the first service.

I was like, oh, why did I do this?

And, you know, I had to change after the fact.

You know, one thing I want to talk about too is I talk about this

in my musical excellence course.

And that is right now we’re talking about ranging songs.

But for worship leaders, you should also change the way your song’s dynamics

flow and the arrangements go based on where the song falls in a set.

So if you already have like two down choruses or the whole set

is kind of down, then maybe instead of going down where you usually

go down, you keep the drums in.

And so changing your arrangements based on the overall flow of the set

is also a very vital part of arranging. Right.

That’s such a good point.

And there’s so many times, like, and this is like a small thing,

but this is just an example where it’s like, it doesn’t make sense.

To me, if we end a song really, really big and then start the next song

at like two, you know, I’m almost always will tell my drummer or

my band and bass player say, hey, let’s make sure at the start of this song,

even though it’s all come to the altar and