Kim Walker Smith – Dealing with Pain and Confusion in Ministry

I felt like there was a shut door. And it’s the weirdest thing. Why would there be a shut door to me within Jesus culture, something that I had helped birth and to build? And I’d been pounding on that door. Let me in. Why do I feel outside here? Why do I feel outside this door? And I tended to point a finger and say, It’s this person, and this person’s shutting this door, blocking this door. And I felt the Lord say to me, Why do you think that he was the one shutting the door? And when the Lord said that, I was like, You shut that door? And I felt almost offended like, God, why would you do that? Why would you shut that door? And I felt the Lord say, How else was I supposed to get you out of here? Welcome to the Worship Ministry Training podcast, a monthly podcast for worship leaders who are serious about growing in their craft and calling. My name is Alex, fellow worship leader. Super stoked you’re here. And if you’re a new listener, I’m going to encourage you to hit that subscribe button because every single month, I’m going to give you helpful, practical guidance that you can immediately implement into your ministry. Hit that subscribe button and then go back through the past nine years of episodes and binge listen your way to a healthier ministry. If you’re someone who is really serious about growing as a worship leader, I’m going to point you to the Worship Ministry Training Academy. What is the academy? It’s an online training platform that will give you everything you need to build a thriving worship ministry. You’ll get 10 in-depth courses on topics like set building, team building, musical excellence, vocal technique, and more. You’ll get live monthly training workshops workshops on topics that are relevant to you. You’ll get exclusive expert interviews with some of the best worship leaders in the world. You’ll get done for you, Ministry Admin Systems and Audition Process, onboarding documents, team training materials, and even team discipleship materials. We will take care of you so you can focus on leading your team. If that sounds like something that would be of help to you, you can try the Worship Ministry Training Academy for just $1 by going to worshipministrytraining. Com. Sign up today for your $1 trial, and I hope to see you inside of the academy. All right, let’s get into today’s episode. Many worship leaders in ministry are going through confusing, difficult, confounding seasons, disappointing seasons, seasons of even pain or loss or wandering or wondering or being in the wilderness. And that’s just a normal part of life, and it’s something God does to test us. Our lovely friend, Kim Walker-Smith, has recently walked through a season, wandering in the wilderness, literally, physically and spiritually. And so she’s going to be sharing some of the lessons that she’s been learning over the last three and a half years. I’m going to bring Kim on right now. Kim, welcome to the podcast. How are you? Good. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so pumped you’re here. Everyone in the academy is really pumped you’re here as well. I want to talk about a lot of things because I’ve been watching all of your thoughts on Thursday videos, literally almost all of them, while I was doing my elliptical trainer. I got a lot of Kim Walker Smith in my ear. It was so good. It was so encouraging. I I want to talk about here are some of the topics. Your season of wilderness wanderings, knowing it was time to leave Jesus culture, dealing with hurt, the worship industry, and handling criticism. Plus, bonus, your awesome thought about anointing and potency in your worship leading. And so I think we’ll start at the top because three and a half years ago, you found yourself in an unexpected season. Life took a very unplanned turn for you. You and your husband moved to the wilderness of Montana. And so you are in You’re in this physical wilderness, but you’re also walking through this spiritual wilderness. So here’s my question, because I think a lot of people go through those seasons. How did you deal with the confusion, the disorientation, the disappointment of this, maybe disappointment, of this unplanned time. You’re like, This was not my plan for my life, but God pushed you into it. Talk us through that because we all go through that. What was in your mind? How did you deal with it? And what has God taught you through that? Yeah. Well, in my opinion, one of the first things I think that is really important when you’re finding yourself in a new season, you know you’ve stepped into a new season, things are different, things have shifted, and maybe there’s physical changes that come with that, like for me, a relocation, things like that. But I think it’s good to first stop to recognise what season you’re in which involves some conversations with the Lord. What season am I? What have you brought me into? Sometimes you can recognise it and you know right away. Other times it might take a moment to process and figure out with the Lord what season this is and what’s going to be required of you in this season. And unfortunately for me, I feel like I went through a desert season years ago after my stepfather passed away. And I learned a lot in that time. But I had this verse, and it’s actually one of my favourite scriptures that I have held on to and kept in my back pocket for those times in those seasons when they come. And it’s in Hoseia 2:14, and it says, Therefore, now I’m going to allure her. I will lead her into the wilderness. And there in the valley of trouble, I’ll make a door of hope. And it goes on to speak of restoration throughout the verse all the way down into verse 17. But the biggest piece of that verse I’ve held onto is that it says that I will lead her. And that was a really big eye-opening thing for me to recognise and remember, I’m a life surrender to Jesus. And so he is the one who leads us into the seasons, whatever the season looks like. And so he must have a plan for that season. And so even though you may feel alone, you may feel confused, you may feel upset, you may feel angry, you may feel hurt, you may I feel a lot of these unpleasant emotions at the season. However, I have to hold on to that core truth and belief that he is the one who has led me here, and there is a plan of this. I may not see the plan or know what that plan is right now. But my job in that moment is just the daily surrender to keep saying yes to the Lord, to keep putting one foot in front of the other, to keep moving forward. I have felt in this last season that I I was just looking out at some fog where I couldn’t see what was ahead. And I was just having to keep moving forward and trust that he is guiding me forward in this, even though I don’t actually know what I’m stepping into or getting into. The really incredible thing was that on the other side of this last season has just come a lot of understanding about where I’ve been, and that has led to great understanding about where I’m going. And the mission moving forward. There were some things that I needed to reconcile within myself. I think the Lord knew that. I don’t think I recognise that until he started pulling those things to the surface and going, We need to talk about these. And it almost felt a little bit as if he brought me out into that wilderness to purposely bring those things to the surface and just the two of us in that, Let’s work through these things. Let’s talk about these things. And yeah, I came out on the other side. Well, I feel like I came out in some ways, but in other ways, I feel like I’ve just made my camp here. I’m just going, you know what? At the end of this, I actually like it out here, and this feels like a much better place for me anyway. So I think I’ll just set up camp and just stay here, and I’m content. And I say this jokingly and somewhat painfully, but I feel a little bit like John the Baptist out in the wilderness. We got to prepare the way for Jesus. And I feel like, well, Maybe this is just where the Lord has me for this next chapter or chapters of my life. I came into my 40s a few years ago, and maybe there’s this whole new, I don’t know what to even call it, just chapters, like the next book, the next era of my life here that will be spent more in helping to prepare the bride and prepare the church, which actually sounds really exciting to me, the idea of helping other worship leaders, helping to raise people up, mentoring, and just helping the church transition into what God has next for the church. I have so many thoughts. One is, thank God you’re not wearing camel skin or eating locust. Two, interesting, you said the Lord led you to the wilderness. From that scripture, you brought up, and it reminds me of Jesus being led into the wilderness by the spirit to be tempted. And then also there’s the Lord is my shepherd. He leads me, and he leads me through the valley of the Shadow of death. We just read a book on our staff about that, that He is the one guiding us through the peaks and valleys of life for a reason. I went through a season of wilderness wandering recently. Also, I’m getting close to my 40s. I’m 39 now. I talked with Christian Stanfield a couple of weeks ago about the same thing. And he’s like, Man, I’m a completely different person. I’m in my 40s now, and you probably feel the same. It’s like, I didn’t know, same like you, I didn’t know that the Lord needed to bubble up all this junk inside my heart through that wilderness time. That’s his refining fire. Then that brings all this stuff out, and we deal with it, and then he purifies us, and now we’re prepared for that new thing. I’m excited to hear what that new thing is for you. You don’t have to share, but I’m also just excited to watch you step into that. That’s really cool. Yeah. I will say it’s interesting to me, the age thing. I do feel like the number 40 is a significant number, even in the Bible. I had a friend recently, right after my first album on my own as a solo artist or an indie artist, I guess I should say, came out. She sent me this necklace. And this Christian jeweller had made this necklace. And it’s like a crown, and it’s the crown of leaves, though. But it’s 40 leaves. And there’s a little card that came with it, and it said it’s signifying the 40 years in the wilderness, the 40 years of transition. And this is a crown that you’ve earned coming out of this and what you’ve endured and what you’ve gone through to get to this point. And it was funny, my husband turned 40 before me a few years ago. And his dad sat him down and went through, spiritually, what 40 means in the Bible and the significance of that and leaving something behind and stepping into something new. I do feel like it is a significant thing. But the other part is all those years prior to that, it was just go, go, go and accomplishing a lot of things, doing a lot of things. I had my kids in my 30s, so I had my kids a little bit later. So my kids are still very young. But that whole time in my 30s was having babies and young babies. So it’s just a lot going on. And there was a lot of things that just for the sake of, you know what? I got a lot of what I’m doing right now. I would just tuck things away, not necessarily trying to avoid something, but going, I don’t really have time to process through this, or I don’t have time to be upset or time to carry a grudge or time to address this, whatever, or maybe something hurt. I was like, wow, this feels really painful. But you know what? For the sake of unity, for the sake of working together, for the sake of whatever, I’m going to just tuck that away. I’m going to let that roll off. I’m going to assume the best about you, whatever it is. But then I come into this season and I felt like God was like, Hey, all those things that you set aside and tucked away, I actually do want to talk about those and work through those. That was when they all started coming up to this surface. It was for my good. It wasn’t a bad thing to be pulling those things up and dealing with them. I definitely want to talk about how you’ve processed through some of the hurt because I was reading between the lines in your thoughts on Thursday videos, and I heard some hurt from church leaders, from the industry. Anyone in ministry has been hurt. We follow a man who went to a cross, so we shouldn’t be surprised by hurt. So I’d like to talk about that. I’d also, if you’re comfortable, like to talk about leading you into the wilderness was this big decision to step away from Jesus culture. 20 years with Jesus culture, it was really what you gave your life to. And that’s a huge decision. And knowing when a season is over is a really important part of being in ministry. I don’t want to put you in an uncomfortable situation, but how did you know that it was time to step away from that? Because I think many worship leaders also ask that question in their own lives. Yeah. You know what? This is one of the hardest things for anyone who’s really involved in a ministry or a church when you’re running together, building together, working towards things together, all of those things. And there’s always the awkward, what will everyone say, what will people think, or Because oftentimes when people leave a church or a ministry, it’s a negative thing. Most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time, it’s like, I got hurt and I’m leaving. And if there’s not any of that, then there’s always the like, well, what if it’s perceived as that way? All of those things. And for me, I was just extremely committed to Jesus culture. I had been with them from the very beginning. It started in 1999, and I came in 2000, so it was 21 years. And the other part of this is that I’m married, so I’ve got a spouse here who has an opinion and thoughts of his own in everything that I’m doing. And in 2020, when the world was in chaos, we’re living there in California, of course, is where Jesus culture was founded and is And my husband was like, I don’t want to raise our kids here, and I’m done, and I went out. And I was very like, California needs strong leaders here. I don’t want to leave. I don’t want to necessarily abandon California or Jesus culture, all those things. But there had been signs that the Lord had just been dropping along the way, preparing me for this. But I had just been refusing to look at them and to see them because, gosh, just to have built Jesus culture, my whole life’s work, everything in this, just the thought of leaving just seemed like this is crazy. And that was the biggest thing, was just my husband saying, I don’t want to raise our kids here. We grew up in a very tiny farming community in Oregon, and he wanted to raise our kids in a place more like what we grew up in, a small farming community. And that is where we brought them, here to Montana. But obviously, that was a big factor that made me go, okay, Well, he is my husband. He is the head of our household and our leader, and I trust him. And I’m in agreement with him. I wasn’t really happy about the thought of raising our kids in California either. And so we made the big decision. But the funny thing is, the moment I said yes and agreed to this, I felt like my eyes were opened. It’s almost like the scales came off, and I could see all of the things that the Lord had been showing and revealing in an effort to show me it was time to leave. One thing that had been leading up to this point was I felt like there was a shut door. And it’s the weirdest thing. Why would there be a shut door to me within Jesus culture, something that I had helped birth and to build? So it wouldn’t make sense that there would be a feeling of a shut door. But I felt that. And I felt like I’d been at that door pounding on that door. Let me in. Why do I feel outside here? Why do I feel outside this door? And I tended to point a finger and say, it’s this person, it’s this person. This person’s shutting this door, blocking this door. And this came up in the process of getting ready to move. And I felt the Lord say to me, why do you think that he was the one shutting the door or that person was the one shutting the door? And when the Lord said that, I felt like he was saying that Why do you think it’s them? I was like, You shut that door? I felt almost offended God, why would you do that? Why would you shut that door? I felt the Lord say, How else was I supposed to get you out of here? And it suddenly made sense. I wasn’t even asking, When is my season done here? I was just so in it. And the Lord, maybe he felt like my season was done a while ago, and I was just holding on, fighting for it. And when we went to to Banning, the other leader of Jesus Culture, and told him, and he was very supportive. He understood. He knows my background and where I grew up, and he understood our need to want to raise our children somewhere different. He also understood that this was going to be huge, a huge shift in a move. And originally when I left, I thought I could still be a part of the music and the label and all of those things from a distance. Obviously, I wouldn’t be a part of the church because I’m not there. But when I got to Montana, I felt like the Lord said, okay, now that you’re here, I want to discuss this. No, this is a severance. You’re not going back to this. You’re done with this. And that was painful. I wrestled. And I honestly fought that for a bit. And I really was fighting to hold on to a connexion with Jesus culture and to stay in that. And the Lord just made it abundantly clear that it was done. And lots of people had opinions about that. But here’s the other thing. You have to remember, when the Lord speaks to you, if you have a spouse or someone close to you, maybe a parent, like someone that you trust who knows you intimately. Talk to them about what the Lord is telling you. See how they feel. It always helps to have someone who’s in it with you and who’s like, I affirm. I know this is the Lord speaking this to you, and I affirm this, and I’m in agreement with this. And it helps to have that because there will be people who will say, no, this is not the Lord. I’ve gone through transitions like this many times before. I’ve had church leaders say, You’re going to be outside of covering because I’m not doing what they want, and I’m making this decision to move on or to leave or whatever, and they don’t like that. I get that. It’s hard for them. It’s painful for them. It might create gaps. Maybe you are fulfilling a role that they need, whatever it is. But here’s the bottom line, at the end of the day, you will stand before the Lord and you will give an account for your life. Nobody else will do that. And you have to be able to give that account fully. And these other people, they won’t. They will not give an account for the choices you made in your life. And so this is why I say it really helps if you have somebody who can stand with you and affirm and say, yes, I know this is the Lord. This is another strength in that decision process and in doing that and working it out. You have a little baby next to you? I do. Yeah, I’m sorry. My daughter- No, you’re fine. Hi, baby. You’re welcome on camera with your mommy if you want. We’re a family here. You’re so sweet. We love you. The Lord loves you. It’s so cute. I’m almost going to finish your conversation, then I’ll be downstairs soon, okay? I need you. Your mama’s awesome. You know that. I’m leaving that in, by the way. That’s way too cute. Sorry. No, it’s so good. I got kids, I know. I’m also in California, and I’m like, I got to get out of this place. But as the Lord Yeah, I’m in LA, the worst part of it. Oh, yeah. I mean, thanks for being honest, Kim. That’s what I appreciate about you and for not just being like, oh, well, the Lord led. It’s like, no, there were circumstances, and the Lord often it leads through circumstances. But then also that really hard decision of like, I’m going to submit to my husband. I’m going to follow the Lord’s command to do that. Like, wow. I mean, thank you for leading the way in that. And there’s two things. There’s a lot more I want to talk with you about, but we probably don’t have time to talk about all of it. So we’ll have to have you back for down, too. But in terms of you said there was a shut door. And I know one of the things that was happening at the end of your time with Jesus culture is you said, I felt like I lost the potency of my worship. And I want to talk about that maybe next. But before I want to talk about the hurt of the leaders being manipulative and using spiritual language, and you’re going to be outside of covering and very manipulative, honestly. I’ve been through manipulative leaders as well. It’s not cool. So you’ve been hurt by the industry, by the church. How have you dealt with that and processed through that pain? We don’t have to spend a tonne of time here, but anything you want to share about that, how to do that well. Anyone who has been a Christian and been in the church for a chunk of time, I’m sure, has been hurt at some point. Church hurt is just part of being in the church. It’s just part of being in a family. I’m sure all of us have wounds from our family, a sibling that says something that hurt your feelings or a parent that said something. No, it’s just part of being a family. We’re all human. None of us is operating at our perfect capacity all of the time. We all have said and done things. So this is honestly just something that we just have to accept that as Christians in the church, and especially when you’re working in the church, involved in the church in a bigger capacity, not just attending on a Sunday morning, there is a high probability of you at some point experiencing hurt and experiencing wounds. And you just have to settle it within yourself. I have some core values. I’m going to believe the best about people. I’m going to keep loving people. I can’t control people. I can only control me. I’m going to work hard hard on how I respond to those situations, to those wounds, to those things. But I’m also going to work hard on understanding and having good knowledge on healthy boundaries and what it looks like to draw boundaries and to recognise when it’s just someone saying something that we can work through this and talk through this. Other times when it’s, no, this is not a healthy environment. It is manipulative, or it is this, or it is that. This is not a healthy environment for me to stay in. I don’t like assuming bad things about people I want to assume the best. And I want to assume that even the church leaders in the past who have hurt me the most, it was certainly not their intention. I would like to believe that it was not on purpose. But sometimes I think maybe they just did not realise how unhealthy it was. Sometimes any of us could be in such a degree of unhealthiness that you don’t realise how unhealthy it is. And maybe you don’t have someone in your life to hold up a mirror and reflect back to you and go, Hey, this is what you’re communicating, and it looks really crappy. Is this really what you want to be communicating right now? Someone to help us grow or whatever it is. I have just chosen to keep loving the body of Christ, to keep asking God to fill me with his love for the body. I choose forgiveness. I choose to, like I said, believe the best. But I am going to draw healthy boundaries. When it’s time to move on or to do something else or whatever it is, I will do that, and I will speak up. I will say what I need to say. I’m not afraid to push back. I don’t really care how big someone’s title is. They’re human, just like I’m a human, and I’m not a person who’s afraid of confrontation. Let’s just say that. And so I will push back when I feel like it needs to happen in a loving and respectful way. And I also, I think it’s good to give people a chance. If you are experiencing church hurt from someone, a leader, whatever, I think it is really good to confront and to try to work through those things. You never know. It could be really healthy for that person to hear your feedback or your experience, and they could surprise you and go, oh, my gosh, I had no idea I was being that way or doing that to you. I am so sorry. You give them a chance to make it right, to apologise, and I’m sure that they can grow and learn from that as well. Or you may get in it and they may show their true colours of, Well, they don’t care, and they’re right, and you’re wrong. And that’s when you know you can draw a good boundary and on or whatever it is. I do believe it is good and it’s healthy to give people that chance through confrontation. The other part that we have to remember is that our enemy, the devil, he would love to keep you doing in that hurt to keep you outside of the church, to keep you lonely and isolated and disconnected. And when you’re in that place, he has more of a chance of putting other lies and things inside of you that only hurt and wound you. So it’s just incredibly important for us to be honest and to talk openly about these things, to address these things, to try to reconcile these things to the best of our ability. Again, that takes more than one person, usually, and you can only do your side of things. But working through that and on the other side of whatever that decision is, moving on, boundaries, a great conversation, an apology, forgiveness, whatever, it’s really important that we are recognising and guarding our own hearts, and that we are staying connected to healthy people, that we are still showing up, and that, gosh, this is who Jesus is coming back for, the bride. And so we don’t want to abandon that. We have a role in this. And so I think it’s important to fight for relationship and community and for the body of Christ. But healthiness. When it gets real ugly and you got to draw boundaries, you got to draw boundaries. It’s got to be done. I love your heart, Kim. I really do. I think what you said to a couple of things just to pull out real quick is the importance of us speaking the truth in love to one another because you’re either going to find out they’re a weirdo or there’s going to be reconciliation. And I think my encouragement to everybody listening is be slow and take your time in this decision. But if you know you’re in an unhealthy place with an unhealthy leader over you, I’m just saying, please, dear brother or sister, get the heck out of there. There’s so much freedom and joy and peace outside of a toxic environment. So just get out. There is life outside, as Kim and I will both share. But what Kim said is super important. Get rooted in a healthy church. Don’t just be like, I’m hurt. I’m going to take a break. Don’t take a break. The enemy would love to isolate and destroy Anyway. So, yeah, thank you, Kim. I do want to add one more thing with that. One thing that was really painful for me that I recognised and learned in this most recent season was that I didn’t really speak up about some things. And there are some things that are going to be private that you’re going to work through privately with that person or your spouse, whoever. But there are some things that I feel do need to be publicly addressed because there were some things that happened years and years ago that I went through and I saw and was wrong and unhealthy. I did not ever talk about it, and I kept it very private. And all these years later, I can see that there are other people who have come behind me and got put through that same ringer and got very wounded. And some of them completely walked away from God. They were so hurt that they just walked away completely. And it grieved me. And I couldn’t help but wonder if I had said something, if I had spoken up, could I have prevented those people from even going through that? And that was really painful to me. I can’t take responsibility for all of the actions, but it was a hard lesson for me to learn. This is why I started doing my thoughts on Thursday, because I thought we have to talk about some things. And I realised I just couldn’t be quiet about some of that stuff because there are people coming up behind me, and I want them to come into things prepared and equipped. I want it to be healthy. I want it to be a positive experience for them, and I don’t want them going through things unnecessarily. That I have wisdom. I’ve been through that. I walked through that. You know what? You don’t need to walk through that fire. Let me share some wisdom with you. Let me help you with that so you don’t have to walk through that same fire. You’ll have your own fire to go through. No sense in going through this one. That was a hard lesson for me. That’s another thing. When you do walk through that stuff, I do think it’s important that you seek wisdom from the Lord on, is this something I should talk about or bring out to other people or publicly or whatever for the sake of others who are coming behind you. That’s powerful. You are speaking out now on Thoughts on Thursday, and I’m going to link a link to your YouTube channel, and I’m going to encourage you to do a podcast version version of it just because it’s so good. I’ll be your biggest cheerleader on that. But one of the things you talked about in your Thoughts on Thursday was the problems that you’re seeing in the worship industry. And you said something really interesting in one of your videos. You said that you were at the epicentre, and in some ways, you actually contributed to the worship industry. So I’d love to hear, how did you feel you contributed? What is wrong with the current state of the worship industry? Anything there that you feel like diving into? Yeah. Well, there’s a lot to unpack, and so I’ll give the abbreviated version. But when Jesus Culture first started, there wasn’t a lot of churches or movements who were recording music and putting it out there. We did not do it for any other purpose except that we had these teenagers showing up to our Jesus Culture conferences. That was the name of our summer youth conference, Jesus Culture. And they’re encountering God, but then they go home, and a lot of them are going back home to the homes where their parents aren’t Christian, they don’t go to church, and they had nothing to continue that. They have this moment with Jesus, and there’s no discipleship, essentially, is what I’m saying. And so we’re trying to figure out, how can we do this? How can we help these young people stay connected to the Lord? And so that hopefully when they come the next summer, we can build on this and not have to start back at square one, reintroducing them to Jesus again. And we noticed that worship seemed to be the time when they had the most powerful encounters and moments with the Lord, that they really seem to feel and experience Jesus in worship. And so we were like, what if we just recorded the worship and we send that home with them, like a CD, because that’s what we all had back then. And they could keep listening to the worship and maybe keep encountering Jesus. And so we did. We had no money. We just hit the record button. We weren’t writing songs because we weren’t thinking about becoming a band or a record label people. None of that. We just hit the record button, and then we get these CDs to the young people. And then the craziest things happen. These young people, they’re actually asking their parents to take them to church. They’re coming home from school. They’re going in their room. They’re listening to the CD over and over. They’re leading their parents to the Lord. A tonne of parents got saved in this. It was like it sparked this revival amongst the teenagers that was led by the teenagers, and it was happening in the homes. It wasn’t happening at the event or whatever. And so when they came back the next year, exactly what we had hoped would be accomplished happened. And it just kept growing. And so then we’re like, well, maybe we should film it so they could actually have a DVD and see what’s happening in the room, not just here, what’s happening in the room. And then a kid put how he loves the clip on YouTube. Youtube was very new back then. My little brother found it. I don’t know how. He was like 10. And he’s like, Sissy, you’re on YouTube. I said, what is YouTube? I didn’t even know. And he showed me. And it already had 22,000 views at that time, which was going viral. Of course, that wasn’t the word back then. And now it’s I don’t know how many millions of views that thing has gone all over. But that’s what launched us out there. And then the record labels came. Basically, there was Hillsong. There was maybe a couple of others that were just started doing this. But essentially, what started happening was worship became bigger, and people were realising we had our mainstream CCM, Christian music about God, but here was this music that was to God. And there was these real experiences happening with people encountering God in the worship. And it was just different. I think the industry looked and they saw dollar signs. They can see the trends and the patterns. This is where it’s shifting. It’s not as much this over here. There’s a need and a desire for this. And so they started coming in. And pretty soon, especially as technology has grown, and it’s much easier to record an album these days. It’s not as expensive, all of those things. More and more churches and groups, movements, whatever, can record worship albums. And as we’ve seen, there’s been such a rise of groups and stuff out there, which it’s twofold here. On one side, how incredible that we have such access to so much incredible worship music and songs that we love, that we sing in the church. You can find a song for almost anything. It’s just incredible the amount of talent and skill in worship leaders, the songwriting. I mean, it’s just incredible, all of that. But the other side of it is that in that process, it transitioned into the industry, and the industry now owns that. So we’re talking about record labels that while there’s a Christian branch, but they’re owned by secular organisations like Universal, they’re owned by these secular organisations that in the end, they have really the final say in things. And if they want to shut it down, if they want to censor, they could. I mean, they own it. And it’s not just that worship got sucked into this industry, but the industry leaked into the church, and suddenly the industry was very influential on worship within the church and what it looks like, what it sounds like, the stage, the experience. And I really believe that this sent a message to the body that you’re there more to be entertained or to be a spectator versus engaging in worship, because this is what we have now in a lot of churches, is a lot of spectators and not a lot of engagers. It’s created a bit of an issue that a lot of people are talking about going, more worship leaders are waking up to this because it’s not fun. Truly in your heart, if you are a worship leader and you desire to lead people in an encounter with Jesus, you’re not wanting to stand up there and entertain. So they’re recognising this issue and going, now what do we got to do? We got to shift some things here. So there’s so much I could say about that, but that is the abbreviated version. And we were there at the beginning of that when it was happening. And I wish I knew then what I know now. I think we would have done some things different. I think it would have helped lead us into things different. But either way, I also see what the Lord has done. I hear testimonies all the time of people who got a hold of the music and have incredible moments with Jesus getting free, meeting Jesus for the first time. So as he does, he takes all the things, even the maybe not so great things, and he uses them for his glory. And I’m thankful for that. And I don’t regret that. But I do think, gosh, okay, well, it’s landed somewhere that I don’t think he intended. And I think that we can change this. And I think that we can turn this this tight a bit and get it going a different direction. Yeah. It started with purity. It’s ending towards profit. But the Lord even uses awful things to accomplish his will. And even bad people, bad toxic organisations. He still works through all that. But yeah, hopefully the pendulum swings a little bit back, and I think people like you and Jeremy Riddle and Stephanie Gretzinger are helping reorient us, which is interesting. You all came out of the same thing, right? I know you’re running low on time. So I want to ask you about… Because you’re a very powerful person. I want to talk with you about your anointing, the anointing thing that the Lord taught you about fear. I don’t want to give it away. Then I want to share about your album. Then if we have time, I want to ask one question from one of our academy students. Sorry, guys, we probably don’t have a tonne of time with our sister today, but there was one of our academy students. She’s a homeschool mum, worship leader. How do you prioritise? So we’ll get to that at the end. I know you have a lot of thoughts on that. So let’s talk about your power and anointing that you had in worship. It was ending. You were running out of juice somehow. That door-shutting thing you were talking about with Jesus culture, and you felt you had lost your potency. So what was happening at the time that led you to feel that way? And then how did you get that power and potency back? Because that’s one of your marks as a worship leader. Yeah. So I do believe God gives each of us. It’s the anointing on our lives. There’s a certain element of authority and things like that. I think some of it is just what God gives us, but some of it comes through that relationship with God and what you have gone through. The amount of breakthrough you’re willing to contend through in your own life is reflective of the amount of authority that you can walk in to help bring breakthrough for others, which is why it’s so important for us to really go after things in our own life and to keep growing in our walk with Jesus and all of those things and contending for even greater freedom for us. So I understood all of this, but I came into this time towards the end of my time with Jesus Culture in California. I had told my husband this one time. I said, I don’t really have the words for this, but I just feel like it’s just not as powerful, almost like the anointing isn’t as strong when I’m on stage and leading worship. It feels a little bit harder. It’s not quite as easy for me. And it wasn’t like worship was bad or the set was bad, or I walked off stage going, Oh, that really sucked, or it wasn’t anything like that. It was like, I could feel it. I could feel there just wasn’t quite the power that was there or the authority. And I told my husband, I don’t know what the word is. I feel like there’s a word for what I’m feeling, and I can’t find what it is. And I just feel this lack or something is almost like if I had a full tank of something, it’s low. It’s on way down, and something’s not right. And it’s like, I can’t seem to break through as much as I did before. And I couldn’t really figure out what it was. And then we get here, we transition, we move, we get to Montana. I’m in this wilderness. I’m wrestling through all these things and working through this stuff. And I’m still feeling this way. And then one day, I’m having conversation with this woman, and we’re talking about some things, and she said something to me. And it’s funny because what we’re talking about had nothing to do with this at all. We’re talking about a song that I’d written called Mama. And this man had said that he felt like there was this sound that was going to come out of Mama’s, and he wanted to help with that. I said, I got to be honest, I have a real problem with a man saying that the sound for Mama’s is going to come out of him, a man. It’s not. I’m going to tell you right now, it’s not. The sound that’s going to come out of Mama’s is going to come out of Mama’s. So I’m saying this, and I was a little passionate about it, let’s just say. And I did not hold back how I felt about what this man was saying and doing. And she just stopped and she said, I have a word for you. It was the craziest thing. It’s like the Lord just spoke to her right then. And she said, There’s a restoration of potency. Right when she said the word potency, I felt it just hit my heart and my spirit. And I was like, That is exactly what I had felt. That was the word I I couldn’t find. And if I could go back, I would say to my husband, There is a lack of potency in the anointing and the authority. And she said, Anointing has been diluted from trying to please church and not be rebellious. So years ago, some things I walked through, this was a label that was put on me. You’re rebellious, Kim, because we can’t control you. We can’t tell you what to do, whatever. But in my trying to please man and please the church, just so that I wouldn’t be labelled as something that’s not me, that’s not my heart. I essentially was putting people first over God. It’s the fear of man over the fear of God. And in that process, first of all, it’s a sin. It is an absolute sin to fear man and to put anything before the fear of God. And in that process, it was diluting the anointing on my life. And the only way to the restoration of the potency of the anointing is to to confess your sin, ask forgiveness, and to go back to God to make things right, and to acknowledge that. And so I did. Right when she said that, and it just all clicked, and I realised in trying so hard to please everybody, to please them, to squeeze into their boxes, I didn’t want to upset them. I didn’t want to be labelled rebellious. I didn’t want to be labelled as someone trying to be controlling. There’s a whole list of things that I felt like I have had these accusations before, and I didn’t want to be in that. Again, I truly had put myself in this place where I had fear of man, and I was working so hard to please man over pleasing God. And this is the other place that affected me. It kept me there longer, that closed door. How long ago had God closed that door? And I was in such an effort to please man that I was not even paying attention to what God God was saying and doing. Perhaps he wanted me to leave much sooner, and I wasn’t even paying attention because I was trying to please man over pleasing him. And so when I saw that, man, I hit the floor. I confessed my sin. I repented. And I said, Cleanse me of this, Jesus. Take this from me. And I am so sorry. And I will never, lesson learned, I will never do that again. And I will never fear man. I will never put trying to please the church or please people above what God is speaking and doing and saying. And in that moment, that restoration of potency came back. The next time I was on the stage, boom. I felt like there it is. It’s back. I can feel that again. It was like God said, okay, it’s just like when you read the Old Testament, when they sinned and they upset God with their sin, he removed his anointing from them. And when they repented, he came back, and there it was. And so that’s a real thing. Man, I learned that the hard way. So everyone take note. Just learn that now and just don’t even go there because it’s not fun when you’re in that place going, Where’d the potency go? Yeah. Kim, we’re coming up on time. You have another interview. Your new album, Trample is out, and I’m going to put links for everybody to go get it. You have a song called Boxes about breaking out of those boxes that people have placed you, and it’s a great song. It feels very Wyoming-ish in its production as well. Watch out, Kim, I might end up moving out next to you as your neighbour in Wyoming, get out of California. But, Kim, any last final words? And sorry, Academy, beautiful Academy people, Christian, Dez, Jamie, Jeremy, we won’t be able to do the questions because she has another interview right now. But maybe you can come back and spend some time with us again. Yeah. But any final words, and then we’ll send you off on your way in your day. Yeah. There was a question about being a homeschool mama and balancing all the things, worship leader, all that stuff. Any parent, we are balancing a lot between kids and everything else. The really incredible thing homeschool is that parents will put a lot of pressure on themselves thinking it has to be a certain way. But kids learn, they learn, they grow. And when trying to balance, the best thing that we can do is just remember to keep our priorities straight. Family, God, your number one priority is right there. Are you having time with Jesus? The only way you’re going to be a good help to everyone else is if you’re good. So make sure this is good. And then to make sure that your family, that’s balanced and good. And if you check in with your family and they’re not doing so great, then just move some things around and reprioritize, and we just have to be fluid. I can’t really get into strict routines or schedules because things are just changing all the time. The kids are changing all the time. They liked yoghurt yesterday. They don’t like yoghurt today. I mean, this is the nature of children. And so I decided to throw that out the window. There’s some little bits of routine. This is more like a part of our managing the house. But for the most part, we’re just going to just constantly be reevaluating and it changes and it flows according with where we’re at, the season, all of those things. I don’t know. My best advice to parents who are balancing all of the things is to let go a little bit and to just reevaluate on a regular basis. And don’t be afraid to change things up. Don’t feel like you have to get set in one particular thing. Yeah, one of our students, Jen, said, Thank you for being so authentic and sharing, and I appreciate your journey so much. We appreciate you, Kim, and we bless you. But thank you for joining us. Thank you for all your wisdom. Who knows, maybe you’re going to raise up a whole army of homeschool mum worship leaders. Yeah, let’s go. I could totally see that. Well, thank you, sister. Oh, it was awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for tuning in today. I hope this episode encouraged you, helped you, and pushed you forward in your ministry. If it helped you, can you take a second and help us by sending it to just one person that you think needs to hear this? And if you’re feeling extra nice, leave us a nice shiny five-star review on Apple Podcasts or like this video if you’re it on YouTube. If you want to discuss this episode or ask questions, we do have a free section in our academy where you can post comments and questions and chat with other worship leaders just like you, and also sample some of our courses. And you can go to worshipministrytraining. Com/free to join us inside the free portion of the academy. If you’re looking for more, check out the full Access Academy. You can get 15 days for just $1 to start and try things out. Again, you can try all of it for 15 days for just $1 by going to worshipministrytraining. Com. See you inside the Academy, or else I’ll see you next month for another helpful episode.